A Deer and Elk hunting buddy asked me to shoot his Model 70 Winchester .308 and set his scope. At the same time he had a Model 70 Winchester (New Haven) in .270 WSM he had had for some time that he wanted broken in and scope set. I shoot from my own private benchs and chronograph 99.9% of all loads. I used Winchester power point factory ammo for both rifles, the cheapest he could find on the shelf according to him. Both loads were 150 grain bullets, both power points. ----- First, the .308 chronographed an average of 2696 fps and showed remarkable accuracy for factory ammo with near one hole accuracy (two shots in one hole the other hole lacking 1/8th inch touching others). ----- The .270 WSM shot quite good accuracy of .75 inch, though not the one holer of the .308 and chronographed an average of 3106 fps. ----- My buddy said WOW, I had no idea the .270 WSM would do that with the same bullet weight as the .308, and with a bullet should be better through the air than the short stubby .308 bullet. I shoot both the .308 and .270 and with reloading can beat both factory speeds by quite a bit and retain excellent accuracy with both. I have been a fan of the .270 WSM since it was thought up and now own two rifles in that chambering, what do you think of this comparison, between the old and new chamberings. Good shooting.

Kinda makes me wonder just what you get for the money invested in the WSM's and the increased cost of the rifle and the ammo...Looks like the old, cheaper 308 will do anything the new wizz-bang WSM will do. Just my opionion.

quote:

.Looks like the old, cheaper 308 will do anything the new wizz-bang WSM will do

My Remmy 700 .308 with 20" barrel will send 180 grain accubomnds at 2740 FPS.....accuracy is also plenty good for hunting....

It's my "scabbard gun".....

quote:

Originally posted by Shooter973:
Kinda makes me wonder just what you get for the money invested in the WSM's and the increased cost of the rifle and the ammo...Looks like the old, cheaper 308 will do anything the new wizz-bang WSM will do. Just my opionion.

How do you get that out of phurley's description of the 270WSM shooting the same weight bullet 400 fps faster?

Why do we keep whipping the shit out of this subject? Anyone who does not understand/like the WSM concept by now never will. There is no reason to try to discuss this with these people. It's no big deal.

As far as the 270WSM goes, that is almost the itendical velocity I was getting from Winchester gray box ammo. The 150 grain bullets are not where the it shines the best. I prefer the 140 grain Accubond at 3260fps. It's more than a fair trade, 200 fps increase with just a 10 grain decrease in bullet weight. What you end up with is a flat shooting hammer!

Bottom line, the 308 and 270WSM are two different cartridges that usually only compare in action length and handloading versitility.

A well loaded 308win150gnMonmetal will breach well in excess of 2900mv,plenty good for many people for much of the hunting they dooo...but if some feel the need/want for a 270wsm,then have one]....personally- im a .280 fan.

Bear Kodiak, "bottom line is" is that the manufacturers and gun rag writers sold the public on something new!! The 270 Winchester is tried and true!, The 300 WinMag is tried and true. The 7mmMag Rem is tried and true(albeit with modern loads with modern bullets and modern powder the 280 Remington can be pushed to nearly the same results without the dreaded "case ring" to headspace off of. The WSM's 270,7mm amd 300 offer really nothing new in performance and the case design is subject to "inferiority judgement" when compared to the Remington S.A.U.M. designs that appeared on the scene6 months later. Remington hasn't learned in 50 years!! .243 Win vs 6mm Rem!! Bottom line is that both companies tried to fix a problem that didn't exist!!.................so they could sell more rifles!! Shoot the WSM's! Shoot the SAUM's! Have fun!!The performance already existed if you'd take advantage of it. Just my thoughts at this late hour! GHD

I shoot some new reloads in my .270 wea here the other day, preparing for africa. The most powerfull batch of reload I shot did 1051 M/sec or 3448 Ft/sec with 150 grain Nosler Par.
Extraction was fine, but èm primers were flat as a steamrolled dollar bill. I still don`t see the use of a genetic manipulated WSMs

quote:

Originally posted by groundhog devastation:
Bear Kodiak, "bottom line is" is that the manufacturers and gun rag writers sold the public on something new!! The 270 Winchester is tried and true!, The 300 WinMag is tried and true. The 7mmMag Rem is tried and true(albeit with modern loads with modern bullets and modern powder the 280 Remington can be pushed to nearly the same results without the dreaded "case ring" to headspace off of. The WSM's 270,7mm amd 300 offer really nothing new in performance and the case design is subject to "inferiority judgement" when compared to the Remington S.A.U.M. designs that appeared on the scene6 months later. Remington hasn't learned in 50 years!! .243 Win vs 6mm Rem!! Bottom line is that both companies tried to fix a problem that didn't exist!!.................so they could sell more rifles!! Shoot the WSM's! Shoot the SAUM's! Have fun!!The performance already existed if you'd take advantage of it. Just my thoughts at this late hour! GHD

The performance already existed! Out of which short action cartridge are you refering?

Exactly my point in my first paragraph of my previous post. Some, like you, will never get it!

quote:

Originally posted by groundhog devastation:
The WSM's 270,7mm amd 300 offer really nothing new in performance and the case design is subject to "inferiority judgement" GHD

On the money!!!! roger

quote:

Originally posted by phurley5:
...what do you think of this comparison, between the old and new chamberings.

This is ACCURATE RELOADING. Why would anyone give two shits about what factory ammo can or cannot do? Reload those spent cases, do the test over, then come back.

3100 for the 150-grain bullet is quite impressive.....

The 308 Win is one of my favorite cartridges.

My wife and i have used it quite a bit, she has shot several African animals with it.

However I think it is not a fair match to compare the 308 with a 270 Short MAGNUM.

Of course I would expect the 270 SM to have higher velocity, it burns more powder, has more recoil, shorter barrel life etc. It is a Magnum in the true sence of the word, which is not a bad thing if you need the benefits of a Magnum.

Because of its heavier bullets I would prefer the 308 over the 270 WSM on BIG stuff especially at close range.

But on deer sized game at a distance the 270 WSM is a good choice.

Comparing the .308 to a 270 WSM is an apple to orange comparison.

I think most of you folks(except Woods) missed the point Mr. Hurley was making.

quote:

Originally posted by phurley5:
A ...Model 70 Winchester .308 and ... a Model 70 Winchester .270 WSM ...I used Winchester power point factory ammo for both rifles, the cheapest he could find on the shelf according to him. Both loads were 150 grain bullets, both power points.
-----

First, the .308 chronographed an average of 2696 fps and The .270 WSM ... chronographed an average of 3106 fps.
-----

My buddy said WOW, I had no idea the .270 WSM would do that with the same bullet weight as the .308,
-----

with reloading can beat both factory speeds by quite a bit and retain excellent accuracy with both. ...what do you think of this comparison, between the old and new chamberings.

Both use the "same size" Action. And, even with Factory Ammo, the 270WSM is 400fps faster with the same weight Bullet.

Yes they are different Calibers and yes indeed they are different Cartridges. I'm personally not a 0.277" Diameter Bullet fan, but it was quite interesting to see the significant difference between the two for me.

What if they had only been 200fps apart? Or darn near the same velocity as was shown with a 243WSSM and a 243Win by another member on this Board?

So, yes they are totally different Cartridges and Calibers - but that was not the point folks - the step up in Power and Trajectory Flattening, with El Cheapo White Box Factory Ammo was quite nice for the same size rifle. I'm a real die hard 308Win fan, will always have one, and will never have a 270WSM, but..., that is quite impressive for people who Hunt beyond 25-100yds.

I would have preferred a 300WSM and 308Win comparison, but that is not what the guy had bought.
----

Hang in there Mr. Hurley, it is the Off Season. I hope you get drawn for one of those 1000 Elk Tags near you.

Gentlemen ----- Sorry for my silence, my computor service has been down since five minutes after I posted. I agree will all that say it is not comparing apples to apples, but like Hot Core said, that is what the man was wanting me to shoot that day, thus the comparison. I have been a long time .308 shooter and have killed many a Ky. Whitetail with my treasured old Browning BLR. I just started on the .270 WSM two years ago, but it has certainly been a revelation to this shooter. I too had never been a .270 Win shooter, however had always admired it's capabilities, and read every word Jack O'Connor wrote. When they said the WSM variety would better the Win by 200 fps per bullet, it cought my eye. I bought one and discovered a new world with that .277 diameter bullet. ----- I can load a 130 grain North Fork bullet to 3455 fps and a Barnes TSX to 3390 fps, each with amazing accuracy, that is nothing to sneeze at for a hunter of Mule Deer or Bean field Whitetails at home. I can load a 150 grain North Fork or Nosler Partition to 3250 fps, and that folks is in Elk hunting capabilities, although I still like my larger stuff for that great animal. ----- By this comparison I was not putting down the .308, I was simply stating my amazement at the difference in it and the .270 WSM, with the same bullet weight. For me this answers the question of why they are always coming up with something new to sell, sometimes they get it right and actually produce something that is very good and in my opinion will be around for a long time. Good shooting.

From Winchesters factory ammo website, the listed velocity for 308 Win is 2810, and the 300 WSM is 3300. Five hundred fps diff--pretty stout. The 270 WSM is listed at 3120, only 310 fps quicker

Fish30114 ----- If you Chronograph factory loads on a regular basis you will find, some are far from the published speeds. My Chronograph is a Oehler 35-P that I have used for years and trust it's speeds to be very accurate. I have never Chronographed a factory load (except Superior Ammo) that met or exceeded the published speeds by the manufacturer, most are 100 to 200 fps slower. The only manufactured loads that will match what they say is Superior Ammo, they reload to order with a wide variety of bullets. Good shooting.

Phurley5, I agree completely, just offered that intel as a reference, the 'erosion' in true velocity should be pretty consistent from cartridge to cartridge.

Interestingly, this past weekend I chrono'd Win factory ammo with the 150 gr BT/CT, and it ran 3356 avg vel in my 24 1/2" barrel Sako 300 WSM--just another fyi.

P5, There are no bad calibers/cartridges (other than one or two exceptions) in existance - Only bad rifles, bad shooters and people making the bad choices of calibers for a particlar rifle for particular target. For me, the 270 Win. is the best caliber choice for deer (mulie or whitetail) and smaller game. Once the bullet leaves the barrel, the 270WSM will do anything a 270 Win. will do only better and at a higher cost. A 280 Rem. is only better than a 270 Win. in someones imagination. A 30-06 will do anything a 308 will do only better and at a higher cost. A 300 WSM will do anything a 30-06 will do only better and at a higher cost and so on. Energy =$$$. I have chronographed factory ammo also and have found that most manufacturers are liars especially Remington. You can shave 200 to 400 fps. off their claims. The exception to this is the Hornady Light Magnum ammo. It actually shot faster than what they stated. This was with 270 Win. ammo. Getting back to the Win. ammo, I also chronied 270WSM in Win. Supreme and chronied around 3200 fps. with, I believe 140 gr. bullets. Win. factoy 270 Win. in 150 gr. bullets were around mid-2800. As someone else stated, higher velocities equals flatter trajectory and greater killing power. Enter Roy Weatherby.

I like my 270WSM. The only problem I have is the short fat cases feed a little goofy sometimes in my rifle.

Rae59 ----- I started Deer hunting with a 30-30 and did great with it. I then grew to a .308 in Browning BLR and thought it was unbeatable. I then got the chance to go for Elk and went to the .300 Winny and have owned and shot several of them and taken many Deer, Elk, and a Brown Bear with it, declaring it the ultimate all around rifle. Then I looked at Alaska-Africa-Alberta and went to the bigger stuff like the .340 Wby, .338 Lapua, .358 STA, .416 of both Rem and Rigby, always hedging in my favor against the dangers of the most threatening of the animals in the country I hunted. ----- Then they came out with the .270 WSM and while an admirer of the old .270 Win, had never shot a .277 caliber rifle. I couldn't resist when a new grandaughter came along at the same time, thus a new rifle named "little britchs". A Winchester Model 70 ultimate shadow, is it ever a shooter. Then when Winchester started making the Model 70 again in South Carolina and another grandson appeared for an excuse I bought the Featherweight Deluxe, that is drop dead beautiful. Both shoot great, while one (the original) is 100 fps faster than the other, on all loads. I also talked some of my buddies into buying one and that is what brought about my testing session for one of them. I really didn't realize how hot they were until using the factory ammo with both the .308 and WSM on the same day, back to back. I am a lover of speed and pin hole accuracy, and I get it in spades with the .270 WSM. I could care less about the cost, I shoot like some people golf, three day per week, and enjoy every minute of it. I also have to reload for a pastle of grandsons, they never purchase ammo, but I enslave them to help maintain my private shooting range and they never complain, we all win. ------ When you really look at the ballistics the .270 WSM puts a lot of chamberings in the dust, my 7mm STW, still holds it's own. All those old rifles I mention are still with me and always will be and get shot regularly, either by me, a son, son-in-law are close friends kid. Good shooting.

It is funny to listen to folks get deffensive about the old vs. the new. 'yeah well they just re-made something that already existed man! Then they tricked us into buying it man!' We better all be happy for the R&D and sell-ability of new chamberings. Without the gunmakers and ammo manufacterors, there would be a very underfunded NRA and almost no pro gun lobby. We would not have hunting, matches, plinking...personally owned guns period. Thanks for selling rifles Gunmakers!

quote:

Originally posted by phurley5:
... Winchester power point factory ammo ... the .308 chronographed an average of 2696 fps ..

quote:

Originally posted by Fish30114:
... Win factory ammo with the 150 gr BT/CT, and it ran 3356 avg vel ...300 WSM..

There you go, 660fps difference which is really scorching the wind. That might be faster than a couple of 300WinMags I used to have.

At first look, I got to thinking about my old 300WinMags and how much I enjoyed shooting them, especially way out yonder. But I've never quit using the 308Win. Just like a comfortable pair of old blue jeans.

P-5, I'm there with you. Keep up the good work with your grandkids.

quote:

Originally posted by jens poulsen:
I shoot some new reloads in my .270 wea here the other day, preparing for africa. The most powerfull batch of reload I shot did 1051 M/sec or 3448 Ft/sec with 150 grain Nosler Par.
Extraction was fine, but èm primers were flat as a steamrolled dollar bill. I still don`t see the use of a genetic manipulated WSMs

I really like your signature line also ......

However , I don,t anyone who actually has a 270 WSM , that doesn,t REALLY like it .... ....I think the 270 and the 308 will do most of the same things but maybe a little differently ...... Nothing for everyone to get their Knickers in a Knot about .........

I love the .308.
I have 3 of them. I get about 2850 with 150 grain bullets.
I prefer 165s. My hubnting load this year will push a 165 grain hornady interlocked bullet at 2700 FPS.
The drop at 300 yards is 9 inches , that is about as far as I should shoot. With a 200 yard zero.
The 270 WSM is a lot flatter for sure.
But there are not many hunters who should be shooting far enough for it to matter...tj3006