.300win Mag was used,>shots were taken at 50yd...and..400yd...into ballistic gel.

for the charted results,..Go to pictures 9 & 10 in the link below:

http://www.rifleshootermag.com...in-mag-loads-market/ ..

although BG test media is not a true & accurate simulation of living bone and tissue,
it did show some interesting results:

the NoslerPart. for one, exhibited identical penetration at both Short and Long range.
where as other individual premium bullets showed notable variation in penetration at 50yd & 400yd.

Post the results if you can.

quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:
Post the results if you can.

From Rifle Shooter 2014
300 Win Mag 30 calibre penetration test







It would have been nice to see the CEB bullets and the Northfork bullets tested, too. But the magazine went with high volume distribution.

The TTSX is certainly impressive, and for 98% of "non-dangerous" hunting situations all of the above would work very well.
Of course, bullets are even more effective in a larger bore:
the .338 225 gn TTSX has a BC of .514,
the .375 250 gn TTSX has .424,
the .416 350 gn TTSX has a BC of .444.

IMO,the two best were the TSX and the a-frame.

Interesting results; however, it would have been much more convincing had the tests been conducted over 10+ bullets versus a single bullet. Not much a person can take from a single bullet's performance.

That being said, I'll continue to use the Barnes TSX/TTSX bullets I'm currently using.

Amazing how well all the bullets performed.

I would choose the TSX last over all of them myself mostly based on many anecdotal stories (on AR from reliable sources)of lost or long tracking episodes on game where the bullet failed to expand. The only thing it really has going for it is penetration and the small amount of extra penetration is worthless IMO compared to the lesser expansions at lower velocities.

Although I haven't used them, the Rem CL Ultra performed the best IMO for any uses except the biggest game (elk, big bears, or moose) where you might need more penetration on a quartering shot.

That was a pretty good article, obviously multiple test of bullets at 50 Yards, 400 yards and maybe 100 yard and 300 yard distances would add more information but not bad for a magazine test.

Nowhere near the quality of Michael458's testing but good basic information.

Very interesting how penetration was so consistently better at 400 yards.

Completely understand the effect that expansion has on penetration. I would have just thought that fall off of velocity would have effected penetration eventually. Be interesting to see what happens at 500, 600, 700 yards...not that I am going to shoot at that distance. I wounder if there is an optimal distance at 200 to 300 yards.

I would summarize the chart as the rem ultra corelokt (great deer bullet - but what isn't, well except a solid could be a problem) and barnes TTSX are at opposite ends of the spectrum and the rest all being in the middle with some a little better close in and others better far out. The partition, A Frame, and sirocco all did well at either end.

I'd like to have seen a cup and core thrown in the mix like a Sierra 180 grain Game King or Pro Hunter. Just for a comparison.

It appears that any of the bullets would work just fine for anything, moose on down that wouldn't be inclined to bite you. For a great bear, I'd be inclined (I've never hunted grizzlies) to go with the core lokt for the greater trauma it would cause with its greater expansion. I don't really care how far a bullet travels after it exits the far side of an animal.
I, too, would have like to see how some C&C bullets would have stacked up.

Yes, a cup and core Sierra/Speer would have been nice for comparison.

quote:

I would choose the TSX last over all of them myself mostly based on many anecdotal stories of lost or long tracking episodes on game where the bullet failed to penetrate.

I think this was alleging lack of 'expansion', not penetration. And 'allege' is the correct word. The stories I heard struck me as covering up bad shooting. FTR, even small calibre at 3000+ are going to do a lot of damage after throwing their petals, as GSCustom has shown. Not expanding is actually the opposite of what goes on with these bullets. If someone wants the bullet to retain petals, then choose a bullet and load where the impact velocity will be 2600fps or less. The .338 225 gn TTSX at 2700fps muzzle will meet that standard. Or .375 250 gn at 2700fps, or .416 350 gn at 2700fps. Myself, I let the bullets run a little free at 2800-2850 fps. If they blow petals up close on bone, then at least they will maximally penetrate and have a great wound channel.

I agree that anyone should feel comfortable shooting any of those bullets tested. I still think overall that the Nosler Partition that some folks think is outdated technology holds up very well in the test. Violent expansion/fragmentation and deep penetration equals huge wound channels and dead animals.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
I agree that anyone should feel comfortable shooting any of those bullets tested. I still think overall that the Nosler Partition that some folks think is outdated technology holds up very well in the test. Violent expansion/fragmentation and deep penetration equals huge wound channels and dead animals.

Mark

+1. I used a 300 WM 200 gr Nosler Partition in Africa and it performed perfectly with at least 6 one shot kills.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

I would choose the TSX last over all of them myself mostly based on many anecdotal stories of lost or long tracking episodes on game where the bullet failed to penetrate. The only thing it really has going for it is penetration and the small amount of extra penetration is worthless IMO compared to the lesser expansions at lower velocities.

Interesting that the expansion difference is only 0.05" from the TSX and NPT at 400 yards, with 8.5" of extra penetration.

So, a hypothetical situation. That 0.05" of extra expansion times the 27.5" of penetration equals an additional 1.375" of additional critter that bullet will contact. However, at 0.5" and an additional 8.5" of penetration (extra critter bullet could come in contact with) yields 4.25" of additional critter the bullet will contact.

There is no way one can analyze wound channel volume from these data because it simply isn't given, only assumptions.

Also,I recall once upon a time everyone wanted a bullet that provided penetration and weight retention. I guess those wants/needs are no longer desired.

Just for the record, I'd use any of the bullets with the exception of the Hornady and Remington for my African safari. I tried the A-frame, Scirocco II, and Partition but couldn't find a load I was happy with. The Federal Tipped Bonded is not sold as a component, so it automatically gets the hook for reloaders. The only one I haven't tried in my 300 WM would be the AccuBond.

When it is all said and done, it is still very hard to beat the Nosler Partition.

Textbook performance by the accubond and partition. Not surprised. The partitions have been kicking asss and taking names for over six decades, and they continue to do so.

All the bullets performed well and would be effective big game killers.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
Yes, a cup and core Sierra/Speer would have been nice for comparison.

quote:

I would choose the TSX last over all of them myself mostly based on many anecdotal stories of lost or long tracking episodes on game where the bullet failed to penetrate.

I think this was alleging lack of 'expansion', not penetration. And 'allege' is the correct word. The stories I heard struck me as covering up bad shooting. FTR, even small calibre at 3000+ are going to do a lot of damage after throwing their petals, as GSCustom has shown. Not expanding is actually the opposite of what goes on with these bullets. If someone wants the bullet to retain petals, then choose a bullet and load where the impact velocity will be 2600fps or less. The .338 225 gn TTSX at 2700fps muzzle will meet that standard. Or .375 250 gn at 2700fps, or .416 350 gn at 2700fps. Myself, I let the bullets run a little free at 2800-2850 fps. If they blow petals up close on bone, then at least they will maximally penetrate and have a great wound channel.

I corrected my wording, I meant to say expand, not penetrate, just a brain fart.

However, the stories I read, including those by Larry Shores and others were not the result of poor shooting. The bullet simply penciled through. I don't care if you believe it or not, it happened, nothing alleged about it.

AFA African hunting goes, the performance at 50 yards is going to be a helluva lot more indicative of what your results will be than the performance at 400 yards. I would bet there are 10,000 animals killed in Africa under 400 yards for everyone that is killed at that distance or greater.

Personally, with the possible exception of eland or wildebeest, I'd shoot anything you normally shoot in the way of plains game with the Hornady or the Remington and I would kill them in a second with them too, but I'd want a nearly straight on shot, not one that required a lot of penetration. In addition, I'd choose a NP over many others even if it shot 2 MOA and the others shot 1/2. Any bullet can fail, but NPs have a long track record of getting the job done, day in and day out.

My son used 165 gr TBBC in a .308 with great effect in Namibia. All one shot kills, the largest animals being kudu and gemsbok. The kudu ran about 25 yards or so and the gemsboks both more or less died in place.

The bottom line is, it really doesn't make much difference what you use if you make a good shot, or if you don't......

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

Interesting that the expansion difference is only 0.05" from the TSX and NPT at 400 yards, with 8.5" of extra penetration.

Only 0.05" diff. in dia. but weight retention is 99.3% vs 73%

-also its seems they only measured basic expanded diameters, not cross-sectional areas, which the NP appears to have more.

TSX 99.3% retained weight[greater momentum] and less Xsec. area[less parachute effect], explains the xtra 8.5" of penetration @400yd.

Also of note is how the tougher frontal contruction-higher retained weight AFrame, actually results in less penetration at 50yd,
compared to the lighter more frangible NP...however at 400yd the situation is reversed.

Not surprised on the Nosler partition, its the bullet by which all others are compared to, thats usually a dead give away on anything...Just like the quarter horse...

The thing I like best about the Nosler short of the fact that I have never had even the slighest failure, is that it expands "on contact", then penetrates out the other side and leaves a lot of blood on the ground.

Ross Seyfreid once said in print somewhere that anyone that claims to have seen a Nosler fail just shows his lack of experience or something like that. I have to agree..I have seen several claims made because the exit hole wasn't big, but all that means with a Nosler is the front end blew off, and when that happens everything inside is turned to jelly by the fling shards and the base came out the other side..The newer Noslers tend to make mushrooms, but either way they kill real well...I like them best in 30 caliber and larger as the cross section isn't always as large as say a Corelokt, power point, Speer or Sierra..I like them exclusively on elk and larger animals..On deer and such about any bullet suits me fine.

quote:

However, the stories I read, including those by Larry Shores and others were not the result of poor shooting. The bullet simply penciled through. I don't care if you believe it or not, it happened, nothing alleged about it.

How does one differentiate between a bullet that (1) throws its petals, jellies the vitals and then punches out a small exit wound and (2) a bullet that 'pencils through' with no expansion and makes a small exit hole??

The only credible story that I heard involved a bullet that tumbled, likely after hitting a twig. That happened to me once when sighting in a 416 in the field. The target printed a nice 'keyhole'. If that were an animal we would likely have found an unexpanded, deformed bullet.



The 416 was truly a flyer after finding a little twig on the way to the target and a wakeup call to be more careful while on the hunt. The two 338 dual prints were separated by 4 clics up. The 416 group (probably by two shooters if I remember) was after the 'flyer'. The 338 needed a click and the 416 probably got two clicks after printing right of the .5" dot.

Back to the bullet test, I agree with Ray that the Nosler performance is truly great and I would have no qualms using it wherever an expanding bullet was wanted. I happen to use TTSX's most of the time these days (where the plastip tip aids in expansion while getting the bullet downrange), and the test shows that they have the most reliable deep penetration of all. That, too, is a great characteristic. For whitetails and impala and broadside elk all of the bullets penetrate enough, but when buffalo, eland, moose and elk are on the menu then I personally lean toward guaranteed penetration from all angles. The TTSX, Nosler Partition and Swift A-frame clearly shine in that department, and it would only be a very rare quartering shot where there would ever be a potentially significant difference between them. The important thing is to be hunting with a bullet that one is confident in.

quote:

How does one differentiate between a bullet that (1) throws its petals, jellies the vitals and then punches out a small exit wound and (2) a bullet that 'pencils through' with no expansion and makes a small exit hole??

Well, it seems obvious to me, you find the first one dead fairly shortly and in the second case IF you find it, it is a long ways from where it was hit.

wow - tells be the following:

TTSX or Scirocco II

I'll go with the partition every time for all around
Up close and a far shots.

Cal30

I do a lot of shooting and hunting and have used many types of bullets. I see the bullet tests in the magazines and I never see the writers include the Northfork bullets, which I consider the best bullets now offered in this country. I have taken many heads of game with Nosler Partitions and until I used the Northforks I considered it the standard. I still use the Nosler Partitions-Accubonds-Ballistic Tips, and the Barnes TSX bullets for certain old tried and true loads I have counted on in particular rifles. I do find that most of the time when I have an animal in front of me that is larger than Deer sized game it is a Northfork. Usually they are a little more accurate and always have that perfect mushroom unless it is a solid in Africa. I also find them normally faster with the same loads as other bullets. Why the writers don't test them is still a mystery to me. Good shooting.

I had a review of North Fork bullets for Wolfe Pub a few years back and they are superb.
But we are blessed with so many high quality bullets it is hard to single out one as "the best"

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
Amazing how well all the bullets performed.

I would choose the TSX last over all of them myself mostly based on many anecdotal stories (on AR from reliable sources)of lost or long tracking episodes on game where the bullet failed to expand. The only thing it really has going for it is penetration and the small amount of extra penetration is worthless IMO compared to the lesser expansions at lower velocities.

Although I haven't used them, the Rem CL Ultra performed the best IMO for any uses except the biggest game (elk, big bears, or moose) where you might need more penetration on a quartering shot.

As stated previously, I've used TSX bullets in .243, .277, .284, .308 (several variants from 30/06, 300 H&H, 300 WBY), .338 (338WM and 340WBY), .366, .375, .416, .458, and .510. Used on probably 100+ animals now from Duiker to cape buff including lion, leopard, brown bear, giraffe, eland, moose, whitetail, tahr, chamois, red stag, and more species of plains game than I can recall off hand. Of all of those, the only animals that have taken a single step after being hit properly with a TSX or TTSX bullet have been cape buffalo, and those were down within 50 yards. Added to these collective experiences are that I've shot these bullets at close, long, and extreme ranges!

For the life of me, I can't reconcile the anecdotal stories of the TSX not working and creating long tracking jobs or lost animals. Not saying those stories aren't true, but they haven't been my experience, not even remotely, and my sample size isn't small or limited. Honestly, this one leaves me scratching my head wondering why the huge disparity between experiences.

Out of curiousity, do you shoot everything through the shoulders? I've killed easily a 100 animals with the TSXs, and without the shoulder hit or getting the spine involved they run nearly every time.

This is spanning .25-.416 caliber and 3600 fps and down. Giraffe on down too.

quote:

Originally posted by Austin Hunter:
wow - tells be the following:

TTSX or Scirocco II

I would have liked them to test the new Accubond LRs and the North Fork Softs and have the test extended to 600 yards. But great information!

I've shot a lot of plainsgame with the big bore rifle such as the 9.3, .375, 404, 416, a few with the 458 Lott and 505 Gibbs with both softs and solids, they all worked, and most ran 50 to 75 yards with both softs and solids, left good blood trails and little meat damage...I have no problem with that and they were all positive kills..I have shot a lot of PG with the 30-06 and solids and they usually run about the same..I could tell that the bigger the bore with solids the quicker the kill..the softs probably don't expand in these big bores as the bullets are designed for larger tougher animals and the exit wounds were about like a solid and the results the same..

Most any soft point bullet made today is an excellent deer antelope bullet, and in heavier weights most of them work fine on elk also..The bullet makers really have gotten it together, didn't always be that way.

I like Noslers for elk and larger animals and about any bullet suits me for deer etc. I mostly like Noslers in 30 caliber and larger. in the smaller calibers I like cup and core bullets like Speer, Hornday Win PP and corelokts, as they expand larger and kill "quicker" than the Nosler as a rule, but the Nosler still works on smaller animals, but they tend to run a bit further. The Nosler fully expands on entry and exits, but the cross section of a Nosler is smaller than cup and core and many other bullets, thus my preference for it in 30 caliber and larger..

I believe I have had more one shot instant kills with my 300 H&H and the 200 gr. Nosler at 3020 FPS out of my 26 inch tubed Win. pre 64...It just hammers deer, antelope, elk and moose and all of Africas plains game including Eland and whatever..I wouldn't hesitate to shoot a buffalo with that load, but have not done that.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
...in the smaller calibers I like cup and core bullets like Speer, Hornday Win PP and corelokts, as they expand larger and kill "quicker" than the Nosler as a rule, but the Nosler still works on smaller animals, but they tend to run a bit further. The Nosler fully expands on entry and exits, but the cross section of a Nosler is smaller than cup and core and many other bullets,..

In other words, the NP 'pencils' through more than the other more regular softs...
- Which is what Mr.Nosler initially & primarily designed them to do when fired from his .300magnum
and Barnes-X seems to pencil through more than the NP,[which suites some users just fine].

Then we have bullets like NF cup-point, which is designed to more easily deform[expand] than a FN or RN solid.

We have a wonderful array of projectile choice these days ..

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
I agree that anyone should feel comfortable shooting any of those bullets tested. I still think overall that the Nosler Partition that some folks think is outdated technology holds up very well in the test. Violent expansion/fragmentation and deep penetration equals huge wound channels and dead animals.

Mark

You betcha.

Trax,
That is not what I said at all..in fact your playing word games as surely you know better.

But to clarify, what I said was the Nosler acts the same in any caliber it just does not have the cross section expanded that some other bullets do and that is why it out penetrates most bullets. most cup and core bullets mushroom to very large caliber but none penetrate as well..

In smaller calibers partition bullets make a smaller cross section and are somewhat less effective, but deadly never the less. I can see a difference, but only in calibers below 30, and perhaps that applies to all bullets?..I would think that you knew that?..

Bottom line is a Nolser does not pencil through, and I don't believe it when someone says they do, I just think they misinterpeted the happening. I have been shooting them and observing them far too long to believe otherwise...What they do on ocassion is blow the front end off and that works the same as many European bullets have done successfully for years, the front end sends shards everywhere inside and does an emence amount of enternal damage and kills the animal very quickly and the larger bore the more damage.this is why larger calibers send out more shards as they have additional weight that sends more shards flying..the base only of the Nosler exits and those exit holes are caliber in size, thus giveing the impression of pencilling. they still leave caliber size entrance and exit holes and they still give a decent blood trail, but a 30 caliber or larger gives more blood...

Todays newly designed Noslers seldom blow the front end off, they expand properly to the partition with perfect expansion, they may blow the front portion of the core off inside the animal on ocassion, but the expanded remaining portion is exactly what one would expect from a Barnes X as in the pictures of the elephant thread, they both lool simular..

Another aspect of the Nosler is it expands on contact with the animal not after its half way inside as some bullets do..The cavity is thus large and long and straighter than a baloon type cavity of a cup and core or for instance a North Fork.

Don't get me wrong, I really am a North Fork fan and I was the first to test the North forks on buffalo, Hippo, and PG in Africa, same for the 350 gr. Woodleighs in the 375, 416 and 404..also great bullets, and all in the same class as the Noslers and I would be as adiment over disparging statements on these bullets as well...Todays bullets are the best ever.

I hope this clears up my lack of communication with you on my first post.

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:
Interesting results; however, it would have been much more convincing had the tests been conducted over 10+ bullets versus a single bullet. Not much a person can take from a single bullet's performance.

Totally agree. The more the better with min and max criteria reported.

Ray,
Now allow me clarify, I used the term 'penciling through' to describe the NP behavioural tendency to maintain less Xsec. area & penetrate more.
Which as you say, is just what the NP does in comparison to several other expanding bullets.

pencil [def. in physics] - a narrow cone or cylinder.

hence,

More expansion/greater X sec area = tendency to pencil through to a lesser degree.

Less expansion/less X sec area = tendency to pencil through to a greater degree.

Even a NF cup-point that exhibits limited expansion[post-impact increased dia. cylinder],
still pencils through an animal does it not?

We've always had tough bullets that would hold together and soft bullets that would expand reliably out to 600 yards but disintegrate on a close range shoulder shot.

The Nosler Partition was the first bullet I was ever aware that would hold together and still cause great damage on a short range (10 yards) shoulder shot on an elk, and still expand reliably on a mule deer at 600 yards.

The Partitions aren't perfect. I think the A-Frames are better now, but they have the BC of a barn door as do the North Fork Soft Points another fabulous bullet. My ideal bullet would be an A-Frame with a solid boattail base and a polymer tip, ditto for the North Fork.

As far as the TSX goes, from what I've seen and heard they expand well at high velocity and hold together (except maybe losing a few petals) at close range. I'd be afraid of them "penciling through" at very long range when the velocity drops below 2000 fps, but maybe that's unjustified.

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
My ideal bullet would be an A-Frame with a solid boattail base and a polymer tip

How happy you must be that just such a bullet exists! It's called the Federal tipped TBBC.

Sadly, the only way to get some for your own handloading is to buy factory ammo and pull it down.

friar

I can buy factory! Are they bonded like the A-Frames, North Forks and Woodleighs?

Federal does advertise them as bonded, and I'm sure they are.

I shot a very nice whitetail 3 seasons ago with the old, standard point TBBC, Federal offering. Inside 300 yards, they're hard to beat. But their BC is pretty low, almost like a round-nose.

I like Federal's website. You can find all you want there

friar

By coincidence, I was reading Art Alphin's "Any Shot You Want" book last night. I recommend it, though out of print.

The writer, Gary Minton, was discussing the conservation of angular momentum, or the inclination of a bullet to keep spinning within the critter, and how this inclination is in indirect proportion to the expansion of the bullet. In other words, the more a bullet expands, the less it is likely to go in a straight line through a critter. Think a ballet cancer with arms tucked inward.

Minton opined that 50
5 expansion was the max desired, and that 25% was better.

Incidentally, the others responsible for this fine book were Finn AAgard, Terry Weiland, and Craig Boddington. There are discussions on topics such as pressure measuring that are not found anywhere else, to my knowledge.
Brice