I've pretty much got my whitetail/small-game rifle finalized (just waiting for it to show up), I need to start thinking about something a bit bigger.

at the bottom end, I'm picking up the "new-for-04" Weatherby Vanguard (Howa) Stainless in 257wby.

I also have at my disposal a Mauser 98 in 30-06 (my dad's I can use it when he's not!).

so I think something up in the .350-.375 range would be effective. I'd like something generally off the shelf, nothing too exotic, and I'm not a big fan of the weatherby MKV, even though I really like their big mags...

35 whelen, 35 Rem mag, 375H&H, 375 rem mag, truthfully, I don't even know what all else it out there in this range as I've generally limited my shopping to sub-.338 levels, and no one around here HAS anything bigger than a 338!

come on, some healthy debate... oh, and I'd like to start with a Model 70 Super Grade...

A .338WM or .340Wby. is just about the right step up from the .30-06. If you are ever thinking about Africa, then bypass the .34 bore & step up to a .37h&h. Ammo is available in a wide range of bullets & styles. Flat shooting enough for 300yd shots on non DG & ample power for DG in close. THe recoil is also managable for the guy used to an 06. Nothing wrong w/ a .35Whelen or .358 Norma, I've just never been a fan of the .35s.

[ 11-12-2003, 00:39: Message edited by: fredj338 ]

Well, I am a .35 fan but that's just my own little problem. As to yours, .35 ammo of any chambering is either not widely available, or available at all. Little of it reaches full potential without handloading, and bullet selection is a bit limited. The only sensable choice to me is a .338 Win or .375 H&H. I'm not unmindful of the Weatherby/Dakota/Lazzeroni choices; refer to the 2nd sentence of this post. Either of them cover a large bit of territory in regards to utility, my preference being the .338 Win.

I have a project you might be interested in duplicating:
MRC 1999 S/A SS
21.5" Pac-Nor SS chambered in 350RemMag (.640" muzzle dia.)
McMillan Supergrade Stock (on order)
Leupold Dual Dovetail Rings & bases
Leupold 4X33 fixed in matte

Consider these 350RM ballistics using AA powders in a short compact rig which hopefully will hover around the 8lb mark:
Bullet: 250gr Nosler Part
Velocity:2500fps (MV)

Range Path Velocity Energy Ft/lbs
100yds +2.8" 2340fps 3039
200yds +0.6" 2187fps 2655
300yds -8.7" 2040fps 2310
350yds -16.5" 1968fps 2150
400yds -26.4" 1897fps 1997

As you can read, this combo shoots flat enough out to the 300yd mark. If you have time, a LRF, good rest and shooting skills, you could stretch it out to 400yds under optimum conditions. But this is a rifle I'm building for heavy cover. Thoughts of wild boar, bear, elk and moose taking a dirt-dive enter my mind when envisioning this rifle.

MtnHtr

.338 win mag. Get it in the Howa stainless to match your .257. Out of curiousity, where did you see about the availability of the Vanguard in .257?

mountain hunter has it!!!!
the 350 mag will do it all for you in a light and compact package. if you handload you will be in heaven. if not i would definately look at the 338 or the 375.
good luck....
woofer

375 H&H. Really strong, the M70 comes so chambered, ammo is everywhere, and if you feel you want more at a later time, it's easy to rechamber to 375 Weatherby (blown-out H&H case, not to be confused with the much larger 378 Weatherby) or even 375 RUM.
A 375 H&H and your 257, and you're ready for the world.

I conducted the same decision-making process you are starting about a year ago, prompted by a close encounter of the furred kind (black bear with crappy attitude in berry patch). Haqving played around with the 338 Win Mag, I was familiar with its positive aspects (range, flat trajectory, ammo availability, wide range of rifles available) and its downsides--3 in the mag instead of five like the .473" case head cartridges can accomplish in most bolt rifles, and poor performance with cast bullets. If you are limiting yourself to the Winchester M-70, the 338 is probably your best option for the USA, and the 375 H&H if Africa is on the agenda. BTW, the 375 H&H is a SPLENDID cast bullet cartridge.

I opted for the 9.3 x 62 Mauser in a CZ-550 Lux. Not quite as flat shooting as the 338 or 375, not quite as powerful (but pretty close) as the belted mags, but it can contain 5 down/1 up at full capacity. It also is SUPERBLY accurate with cast bullets, and can run them as fast as their jacketed counterparts (2300 FPS+) with no loss of accuracy and very similar trajectories. I suspect a 270 grain flatnose at 2300 FPS will shoot right through most critters at least as well as the Nosler Partition 286's, and are a LOT less expensive to practice with.

The CZ-550 features controlled round feeding like Mauser-family bolt rifles do, and is quite a rifle for the price. I am very happy with this rifle, and when I had to pack the truck with stuff from the house in anticipation of fire evacuation recently--the CZ-550 was one of the five long guns I packed. The others were all pre-'64 Winchesters of one kind or another.

I would opt for either a 9.3x62 or a .375 H&H. Both are great cartridges. The 9.3 turns out to be a lighter package and it has a little more oomph than the .35 whelen, the .375 H&H is just more of a good thing. If I could only own one of the above calibres I would go for the .375 H&H.

Just to add to deputy al above both my .375 & 9.3 are cz 550's there great !! They also both hold five rounds in the mag due to the big magnum action used on the cz .375.

[ 11-12-2003, 07:09: Message edited by: PC ]

Since you mentioned Supergrade I'm assuming it's a standard long action. My choice would be 9.3x62 first, and 35 Whelan second. Either one realistically requires handloading. If you started with a short-action Featherweight, I'd say 358 Win.

If you just want something big and fun, how about a lever-action in 45/70?

Robb

Oh, really? The CZ-550 mag action holds 5, eh? How much does the bare rifle weigh?

Thank you!

Well, you mention that you like the really big mags too, so I'll assume that at some point you'll end up with some variation of .416 or .458 for big stuff that might eat or stomp you on another continent. If that's the case, I think you'd be hard pressed to beat the .338 Win Mag. It's big enough for all but the nastiest game, ammo is everywhere, it's not too big for deer if you want to use it, it's got plenty of punch and flat enough trajectory for pretty much any hunting circumstance, and it's currently available in nearly every rifle made, including the M70 Super Grade. Of course, you could stay in the same family and get a rifle similar to your .257 WM chambered in .340 WM. Consider the availability (or lack thereof) of ammo though.

Bottom line - I'd go for the .338. Actually, I did. I recently added a .338 to my collection as a the "perfect" compliment to my only other big game rifle - a 6.5X55 Swede. They make a nice pair...

Deputy,

my cz 550 .375 H&H scoped and slinged weigh's a tad over 10 pounds. I can have 5 in the mag and one up the spout for a six shot .375 !!. My .458 Lott is built on a cz 550 action as well (just a cz .458 win mag reamed out) it holds six shots and weigh's in lighter than my .375 because they must use the same barrel blanks, it is also a six shooter. Get onto these big cz actions there a winner IMHO. I would rather have the .375 the lighter one and the lott weigh a bit more

My cz 9.3x62 is definitely lighter than the above mentioned rifles and also has the 5 shot capacity mag.

couple questions on the CZs,

how's the wood?
how's the out of box performance?
reliability?
PICS! (most mfgr's sites are blocked from the office...

I have a Steyr Prohunter in .376 Steyr. It is a wonderful larger bore rifle. It is one of the handiest rifles I have. The barrel is 20" and the ballistics of this round are quoted from the 20" barrel. It uses scope bases for the Browning. Hornady makes ammo for this round. It is not loaded to its potential but it is plenty for any North American game. Just throwing in another ingredient into the pot of decisions.

interesting... thanks for the info!

...but I still think the 375H&H is at the top of the list.

it will really settle the armory...

25-06 (pile of remmington, to be retired/sold)
257wby Weatherby Vanguard
30-06 Mauser Custom (dad's OLD tack-driver!)
375 H&H (Win M70 SuperGrade)
458 Lott (Ruger Magnum Deluxe)

not a whole lot that you aren't WELL equipped for.

the 257 and 30 are good for any/all deer, caribou, yotes, and small african plains game. The 375 is more than enough for the elk, moose, black-bears, and larger african plains game. and the 458 will be my dad's cape-buffalo rifle, and I might borrow it for Bison.

If it helps, for my 4 gun battery I choose:

.257 Roberts
.300 H&H Mag
.338 Win Mag
.416 Rem Mag.

Our first choices are pretty close and since the .300 is a tad more powerfull than your -06, I'd suggest the .338 to you. And once you get that, jump over the .375 and get into the 400 range. Either a .416 Rigby, .416 Rem Mag or all the way to a .458 Lott.

I guess, for me (and i'll try not to justify my choice, but more explain it)...

the 338 can't do much of anything that the 30-06 can't do... elk, even short-range moose (are there any other kind?) and black bear... the 30-06 is an adequate cartridge for, and for that matter, that gun is a GREAT shooter... so to me the 338 doesn't really gain me much more "huntable game" and it specifically fails the test of the DG requirements. for a long time, I thought the 338 was a great choice, but the more I look at it, the less it provides...

I also don't want to have to buy more rifles than necessary (ok, not true, but justifying it to the wife is a PITA!)... and the 375 allows me to buy two rifles, and still have my own DG-qualified gun for the trip to africa (dad will be using his buffalo gun... on buffalo). I also don't want a 400+ caliber. the cost of ammunition is just too high.

Das Mafia,

the cz's are supurb quality IMHO they have a set trigger function which is great for target work, I own 5 cz's and tow more BRNO's and all shoot great right out of the box. If you get a .375 H&H get it bedded to ensure the stock does not crack. Some cz's are smoother in the action than others my .375 CZ is so smooth you would swear a smith has done heaps of work on it but the action has not been touched. All my cz's feed and eject flawlessly, and they are a modern mauser type action with CRF which I like.

Search for J Belks review of cz rifles either in the Archives here or on HA.

thanks man! I'll take a look at those... I found a REALLY NICE model 70 in 375H&H on gunbroker for $750, its really tempting!

[ 11-13-2003, 22:38: Message edited by: dasMafia ]

Myself, I think I'd take the M70 before the CZ.
The CZ would make a great Big Bore, where you'd want the extra weight and action length. I wouldn't want to have to tote around a 10+# rifle over hill and dale. You get to liking the cartridge, you'll wish it was in a handy package.
If you need a better recoil pad on it, no biggie.
You'll have three down and one in the chamber, which is a lot.

if 4 solid hits from a 375 don't take something down... you shouldn't be hunting it in the first place!

PC et all--

Thanks for the figures on weight. 10# with scope is acceptable, especially for a big thumper like the 375 H&H with six on board. I dragged around a 12.5" bolt 308 for several years at work, so a 10# 375 sounds just slick as can be to me.

Also--finally getting around to scoping the CZ-550/9.3 x 62. Thus way I'll be able to see what the rifle can REALLY do. It's a OLD Redfield 1x-4x with European post/cross-hair reticle, and the adjustment turrets are apparently metric--centimeter clicks from the way the thing acts when "boxed" downrange. My thoughts--metric scope, Euro reticle, it belongs on a metric caliber rifle from Europe.

Deputy,

keep us posted on the 9.3 progress I have a cz 550 lux 9.3 love my hogs back stock on my Euro big bore I have a leupold 2-7 Vari X11 in warne fixed mounts. I would have rathered a 1-4 for this rifle but the 2-7 was kicking around at the time so thats what I went with, shoots great I am stuffing around with speer 270 grainers in lapua cases and wlr primers with 56 gr of AR2208.

The weight of the cz 550 .375 is fine, could be a shade lighter yes, but it shoots nice off hand and also other manufacturers tell tales when it comes to the weight of there .375's cz tells the truth

4 solid hits is not unusual with Cape buffalo and any caliber, it happens a lot, they are tougher than a tank...

I have seen them expire only after shot 13 with a 470 and a 500 and another time with 9 shots from the same two calibers...saw one take 12 375s and another take 7 or 8, many take 4 shots or better, with any caliber...

A few die with one shot from all of the above calibers...

I have a motto on Cape Buffalo: shoot until all four feet are up and then shoot a couple of more into them, ammo is cheap enough to do that IMO....

If you want to knock a buff out with one shot then shoot him where his neck and shoulder join, he will hit the dirt instantly and won't get back up, but may require a finisher or two..........