Ok all you ammo gurue's here's the questions of the hour. What reason's are there to choose a 165 gr. load over a 180 gr. load or vice versa. I am kinda set on using Federal Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, but can decide which grain weight. 90% of my hunting will be done in Michigan, on whitetail deer.

For where you are at, and what you are hunting... it doesnt make a damn bit of difference whether you use a 165 or a 180 in weight.

My wife and I have used the Federal 165gr.TBBCin a 308Win. on several deer, pigs, bobcat, and coyote's. It has performed perfectly.
I would use the one that shoots best in your rifle.

No real need for anything more than a 165 gr. bullet for deer in an '06. Especially with a tough bullet like a TBBC. You'll gain more with the higher velocity of the 165 gr.

You're hunting comparatively short range there. Stick with the 180 gr., and you will ruin a lot less meat.

Try it yourself one season, one rifle with 165, and one with 180. with properly placed shots, I believe you will like the 180 results much better. That is, if you want to eat them, rather than hang them on a wall.

In Michigan? I would really seriously consider the 200 gr. RN. Woods hunting, right? and these will still have a good trajectory to 250 yards or so. That should cover any of your shots, and be deadly on anything up to Sasquatch and beyond.

I opt for the 165's or even 150's. I like to scramble the boiler room pretty well. The pass through shots and weight retention is not much of a factor on deer sized game. If you want to preserve shoulder and neck meat, shoot a 45-70. It you punch hoes in the tasty parts that is more a shot placement issue than a bullet issue, IMHO.
Save the heavy bullets for elk.

For the "one rifle " owner I'd choose the 180's. If you have other guns I would experiment. I haven't used 150's in decades, as they leave holes that would make a .270 proud.

Next up is the 165 grain bullet. This is my favorite deer bullet in the venerable '06. With a sectional density of .248, it will work well on both whitetail and mule deer. We're talking standard bullets here, not premiums.

The 165's can be easily driven to 2900fps in the '06, whereas the 180's top out at about 2800fps. Not a great deal of difference, but it is something to be considered when one is thinking of recoil. This can be had in a 22" barrel, whereas most '06's have 24" tubes.

Now to the crux of the matter, 180's. Given the '06's unmatched versatility, this combination makes for the best non-magnum combination going -bar none-. It provides adequate power for almost all North American game that is huntable, with tolerable recoil. A tall order in anyone's book.

packrat

Using the tbbc bullet it will make little difference.The 165 will shoot a little flatter but not enough to mahe a great deal of difference.Using conventional bullets the 180 might do less meat damage but you did specify the tbbc so there will be no real difference in meat damage because expansion will be nearly identical and neither bullet will come apart.

One of the "selling points" of the Super Premiums, was that the bullet ,being of better construction, one could go down in weight and achieve the same amount of penetration than if you were using a heavier bullet.

For example, a 165gr X should penetrate better than a 180gr Hornady because it holds up better. It seems to me, that you can't get around the laws of physics and sectional density. The 180's higher SD "should" make it a better penetrator. The lighter X will "probably" penetrate more, only IF the Hornady starts to break apart. The other advantage I guess is flatter trajectory and a bit less recoil. For deer? hell, shoot the one your rifle likes best. jorge

I started with 150's, then moved to 165's, I have neally run out of my supply of those and then I will start on 180's. I have 250 loaded rounds of speer 180 gr RN's that I am going to use.

I would opt for the 180's but then I lean towards "heavy for calibre" in most instances.

A lot of people on this forum have had good luck with sirrea's heavy .308 RN bullets (180 or 200's).

Another bullet you may want to look at and I wanted to try was Hornady's 190 gr .308 cal BTSP. I feel this bullet would also be worth a look. Particularly if your a ballistics fan because this bullet has a high BC and probably good SD as well.

jorge-The 165 gr barnes xlc will greatly outpenetrate the 180gr partition as will the 165gr failsafe.Bullet construction is far more important than sectional density.

Use what you want to but the logic of using a Barnes X bullet on deer excapes me. There is nothing practical that the X bullet will do that a Hornady or Corelokt won't. I'm not trashing the X bullets -in truth, I have never used them. But the idea strikes me as buying a Ferrari to drive to your job at the 7/11. I do know I have killed a truck load of whitetails using a 30-06 and a 165gr Rem corelokt bullet and they looked as dead as any deer I've killed with something else.

I finally settled on the 180 gr. Nosler partition as my one and only 30-06 load...It works under all circumstances on deer and elk from any direction....It will floor the largest deer with a going away shot and will even shoot thorough an elk lengthwise...

Any bullet I choose will shoot lengthwise through the animal I hunt with it, that is my requirment for a serious hunt....One I have learned to respect over the years....

Based on that I have little use for 150 and 165 gr. bullets in the 30-06...If one limits their shots to angles the the lighter bullets will surfice most of the time.

Forgetting all theoretical advantages for a moment, the real question should be: what bullet shoots better out of my particular rifle? That's the answer to your question.

If you can get a .30-06 to shoot well with a super premium bullet like the 168-grain Barnes XLC or the FailSafe, your prayers are answered for all hunting in North America. But the key is always getting one that shoots well at the ranges you intend to hunt.

My experience is exactly the same as Ray's. I too now only use 180gr noslers for my 30-06. If I need more than that I'll use a bigger gun. The 180 in the 06 is a very fine load.

That is precisely what I said. I know an X of lesser weight will out penetrate a softer bullet of higher weight. Xs are in a class by themselves when it come to penetration. It's almost like a "soft-solid" but I think the super-premiums are a must at magnum velocities, even with deer. If that close in shot comes up you risk bullet failure with a conventional cup bullet. Sectional density still remains an important component of penetration though. jorge

jorge -I have taken in excess of thirty head of big game including deer,bighorn,pronghorn,elk and moose with ballistic tips in 100gr-.257,140gr-7mm and 180gr-.308.The cartridges were 257wbymag,7mm stw and 300 ultramag and muzzle velocities were in the 3400fps to 3500fps range and I have not had a single bullet failure.This would indicate to me that super premium bullets are not a must for all high velocity applications although they may be a good idea.As well the failsafe,jensen j26,grandslam,a-frame and other premium bullets all penetrate much better than conventional bullets even with lesser sectional densities so the x bullets are not necessarily in a class by themselves.Sectional density is therefore only a real factor in penetration in conventional bullets.

[ 07-11-2003, 07:24: Message edited by: stubblejumper ]

I have to go with P17 on this one, it depends on what your rifle likes to shoot. While I normally go with heavy for caliber bullets sometimes a rifle just won't shoot them. Try 165's and 180's and see what the rifle likes best. If you handload you should be able to get either one to shoot acceptably.