I'm thinking about a load in 338WM for guests and grandchildren.

The basic idea would be a load as light as possible that is still a responsible load while walking in an African forest.

From published loads and algorithms I am thinking that something like the following might work:

185grain TTSX (for decent penetration)
56 grain H4895
estimated muzzle velocity: 2600fps (slow medium)
estimated muzzle energy: 2776 ft#. (=270)
recoil in 7.5# Tikka rifle: 20.1 ft# (=30-06)
2.1" 100-yd-zero, drop at 300: -9.6" (-0.3" at 200)
10mph drift at 300-yd: 7.9"

That would equal a medium 338Fed load and be equivalent to a 30-06 level recoil.

The rifle would be a Tikka with synthetic stock cut to 12.5" LOP. Maybe 2-3 ounces of JB-weld and wheel-weight piece inside butt for balance.

Thoughts? Experiences?

PS: our normal plains load is 70.5gn R-17, 225 TTSX at 2835fps, 4015 ft# muzzle-energy
and a 100-yd/2.1" zero with -6.3" drop at 300yd.
Accurate and hits hard:

Hartebeest heart at 250-275 yards.

The recoil of the full load in the 7.5# Tikka is 38.2 ft#, a little brisk for an 11-12 year-old, though my wife (70) can handle it. ("It jumps pretty fast").

416 I understand what you are attempting to do.Good idea. I have never had great success with reduced loads in large cases. I would consider trying a starting load of a bulkier powder like 4350. About 65 grs of 4350 will give you about 2800 fps. I would also stay with a mag primer.

quote:

Originally posted by snowman:
416 I understand what you are attempting to do.Good idea. I have never had great success with reduced loads in large cases. I would consider trying a starting load of a bulkier powder like 4350. About 65 grs of 4350 will give you about 2800 fps. I would also stay with a mag primer.

If it works, it might save us from dragging over a 3006. The saying 'you can never have too many guns' doesn't apply where the gov limits numbers of rifles.

Very accurate in my rifle.
Comfortable to shoot.

338 WIN MAG

Ruger Guide Gun 20" Bbl.

225 gr. Hornady SP

H414
3.33" OAL
64.4 grs.
Magnum Large Rifle Primer

2475 FPS
3060 FPE

Commander--
That is a nice looking load, ball powder and all.
I only have a little fear that a 24.4" Tikka barrel would produce 2575-2600fps with that load and a recoil of 28 ft# (closer to 300WM). (AmmoGuide lists 56.5 Rel-15, 225gnHorn, for 2590fps in a 24" barrel.)

quote:

I have never had great success with reduced loads in large cases.

Snowman, I hear you.

On the other hand I have had good experience developing reduced loads with H4895. See below.


This 270 load may not be a magnum case but 37.5 grains H4895 is not a lot of powder in the 270, yet the accuracy was stunning at 2650fps. It's just much too light of a bullet for anything more than a reedbuck or impala. Recoil: 8 ft#, nice for grandkids but not recommended beyond them.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

I have never had great success with reduced loads in large cases.

Snowman, I hear you.

On the other hand I have had good experience developing reduced loads with H4895. See below.


This 270 load may not be a magnum case but 37.5 grains H4895 is not a lot of powder in the 270, yet the accuracy was stunning at 2650fps. It's just much too light of a bullet for anything more than a reedbuck or impala. Recoil: 8 ft#, nice for grandkids but not recommended beyond them.

416 No denying that reduced load is accurate. I would also agree that 4895 is one of the best powders for reduced loads. Ackley talked about reduced loads in his handbooks as have several others. Really slow burning powders and very small volumes of powder in a case seem to be two of the things that frequently cause problems. Some have used a filler when the powder charge is small. I have used a small tuft of polyester fibre (the stuff used in pillows or the filter in your fish aquarium)in reduced 458 loads.It cured the somewhat delayed ignition (or inconsistant) that sometimes occurred .Can't lay my hands on that article right now but I remember they did not recommend the filler in bottleneck cartridges.I don't think I would be using ball powders in reduced loads. Many loading manuals recommend mag primers even in std cartridges when ball powders are used.Are they really harder to light ?? Let your experience guide you. A bulky powder that ignites easy would certainly deserve consideration. That is why I suggested 4350. 4064 may also be an option. You may want to try a couple powders to see which performs best in YOUR rifle. I like the idea of you using the 185 gr TTSX bullet. The lighter the bullet the less recoil. Moving up to 200 or 225 gr bullets will result in more recoil. Let us know what works out the best.

I have used all three of these and they worked well.

Wt. Bullet Powder Manufacturer Powder Charge Velocity (FPS)
225 Hornady SST IMR IMR-4064 56.0 2418
Remarks: 100-yard group (inches): .71
225 Hornady SST IMR IMR-4350 57.5 2107
Remarks: 100-yard group (inches): .60
225 Hornady InterLock IMR SR-4759 31.0 1863
Remarks: 100-yard group (inches): .31

I can only suggest for kids and wimmen, and a .338 I would want the 200 to 225 gr. bullet of any make at 2350 to 2400 FPS..It would work on about anything from deer to elk at up to 200 yards, and not tear one up unless you hit a shoulder bone. Holds down the recoil, has fantastic penetration, muzzle blast is down and kills anything exceptionally well as long as you don't try to shoot to far down the pike.

I found this applies to about any big bore caliber with one of its lighter bullets. I had real good luck shooting whitetail with a 300 gr. bullet in a 404 loaded down to 2300.

I am sure it would work fine and be quite effective, but why don't you just give them a 30/06 with a standard 180gn load.

Aside from the 06 being grossly Boring . 416 is hoping to reduce the # of rifles he travels with .
416 ; very glad to hear you have reduced the lop. I get all bent out of shape when some guy won't chop a butt stock for a youngin or lady . Understandable if someone doesn't want to cut up some super fancy grade stock. But there are always affordable laminated or synthetic stocks that will work Great for making memories.
I hope you will be using one of your ler Nikon scopes on it as well.
IMO if you can duplicate a 180 ish gr bullet @ 2400-2500 fps. It will kill very well. And not beat them up.

I've been shooting a 185 grain GMX out of a 6lb 12 oz for a couple years now and recoil is very manageable in the light rifle and it's a very effective 500+ yard set up.

Why not get a mercury recoil reducer or two and put them in the stock since they will add weight to increase balance and reduce the felt recoil?

Maybe OK for an adult, but a recoil reducer adds carrying weight to the rifle, hardly something an 11-year old wants.

Why not get a 35 whelen

quote:

Originally posted by Double BC:
Why not get a 35 whelen

Because a full-load Whelen is a bit too much for an 11-year old---a 225gn at 2600fps is about 28ft# recoil, something like a 330WinMag.
Plus, I would need to get extra papers and ferry the new rifle to Africa. The 338 is in place and only needs special loads.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
Maybe OK for an adult, but a recoil reducer adds carrying weight to the rifle, hardly something an 11-year old wants.

You were talking earlier of adding lead to the butt stock to help balancing it so it wasn't muzzle heavy and add weight to help reduce the felt recoil. My suggestion was just eliminating the lead with out adding extra weight. You can't have both unless you put a muzzle brake on it and there are some good clamp on brakes available.

You are right, truck driver, but I was talking about 2 ounces, maybe 4, not 8 or 16.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
You are right, truck driver, but I was talking about 2 ounces, maybe 4, not 8 or 16.

If you check out Brownell's web site you might find what you need. The recoil reducers that fit in the stock weighs from 6oz to 7.5oz and there are models that bolt on to the butt stock and accepts a recoil pad and is adjustable for length of pull and other adjustments that would come in handy when switching users.

IIRC some airlines won't carry rifles with mercury recoil reducers.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
IIRC some airlines won't carry rifles with mercury recoil reducers.

How on earth would they even know?

As the topic started "Guest load in 338 WM"
there have been a bunch of great suggestions of lesser powder charges and lesser bullet weights all would work fine.
For small stature shooters, or less experienced shooters adding weight or muzzle brakes is a great way to "turn off" a new or young shooter.
Stick with reduced bullet weights and powder charges.

quote:

Originally posted by truck driver:

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
You are right, truck driver, but I was talking about 2 ounces, maybe 4, not 8 or 16.

If you check out Brownell's web site you might find what you need. The recoil reducers that fit in the stock weighs from 6oz to 7.5oz and there are models that bolt on to the butt stock and accepts a recoil pad and is adjustable for length of pull and other adjustments that would come in handy when switching users.

Thank you. The 338WM we have in Africa is a walnut stocked stainless Tikka and balances nicely already.
On the other hand, if and when we get a new, designated-guest/grandkid rifle it will probably be a synthetic stocked model And the balancing and weight will be evaluated on a specific case basis. I would want it to be 6.5 pounds bare or less and to feel good even at 12.5" LOP. With a Ruger American we would have the luxury of getting or cutting one stock to 12.5" LOP and a second, for $99, at 13.75".

There is always the Weatherby Vanguard Camillia which is designed around and for women which would make a great youth rifle and probably meet the criteria you want and the price range of both rifles mentioned in your last post.

It's a Law of Physics Thing, period.

My success story with the 338WM was to go to the lightest bullet I could get to stabilize. I use the 160 gr. Barnes TTSX, SKU #30424, and a Lee Factory Crimp Die, crimping in the foremost relief groove.

Took two goes, tried H-4350 and could not better 2.5" groups and the holes in the target appeared egg-shaped.

Ended up with Lovex S070 (similar to AA-4350) and it shoots 5 shots right at around 1".

Recoil when compared with 210 grainers, is virtually nada.

I probably would go the other way; 250 or 275 Speer at 2000 fps with sr 4759 or such. Big and soft but will penetrate well. Much softer to my mind in both recoil and noise both of which are issues with youngsters. My son finds my 35 whelen shooting 290 grain cast at 1950 a pleasant experience.
Of course with these loads your 338 is no longer a 400 yard gun but neither is your guest or you would have given him the full loads yes?

Wow! it won't be long before the kids and grandkid put you on their S list...

Skip the 338 at any speed, get them a 222, 22-250 and as they grow a 257 or 7x57..They will learn to love you in time and they have a talent for forgivness in like 4 to 10 years in this case!

quote:

it won't be long before the kids and grandkid put you on their S list...

Skip the 338 at any speed, get them a 222

Yes, a 275 grainer would probably shove a kid around even at slow speed. So the "222" is good advice in the US where a person can buy whatever rifle they want. An accurate 223 bolt action would be great for cutting one's teeth. But in TZ one goes through a lot of red tape, and more red tape, and rifles are typically limited to two/person (+/-shotgun,pistol).

Meanwhile, we have a 243 in Calif., but only one set of grandkids there. Fortunately, we have an air rifle in TZ for training, a 25cal Marauder that is heavier than our 338. The kids will be glad to hold the lighter 338 and learn to shoot with some kind of rest.

Hey Ray,
I am in good standing with the Kids and grandkids on the Whelen matter. My son has been shooting the Whelen as posted since he was 100 pounds. Loves it. The Original poster did not ask "what other gun can I use instead of this .338 WM." He asked about light loads for same. As light loads go, I think the recoil formula will be on my side. Felt recoil, the speed of said recoil and the noise are all critical to new shooters. So if the OP really wants a guest as he described to use his 338 on game, I still advise slowing the velocity down and for terminal performance on live game, substitute weight to get penetration.

There are some light loads here:
https://www.24hourcampfire.com...ty_Hunting_Loads_for