The answer seems obvious. Yet, after observing many tiny target groups away from the center of the bulls eye, just got to wondering how important it is to others.
A bit more food for thought .. a target-centered 1.5 inch group is really only 3/4 of an inch off the point of aim.

I prefer them centered over POA of the reticle and also think about groups as you mentioned, a 1” group around my POA means a .5” miss. One of those tiny groups at 2 o’clock of POA has always bugged me.

When I am testing loads and sometimes even fine tuning group size I pay very little attention to where it is in relation to the point of aim.
It's only when I'm going to hunt with it that I start playing with final centering of the group on the target.
Doesn't bug me in the slightest to shoot tiny groups 2" away from the bullseye..

quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:
When I am testing loads and sometimes even fine tuning group size I pay very little attention to where it is in relation to the point of aim.
It's only when I'm going to hunt with it that I start playing with final centering of the group on the target.
Doesn't bug me in the slightest to shoot tiny groups 2" away from the bullseye..

This^^^^^^^^

Period.

In working for tiny groups, hitting the "bullseye" affects the point you're aiming at. Better to have the rounds strike off of your aiming point and leave the aiming point the same for successive shots.

A little low, but before final sight in it's dead on now. 500 Jeffery, 570g TSX 230g

I am shooting nearly every available factory match, hunting and target ammo in 6.5 creedmoor.

As long as the groups are tight and I know what ammo the gun likes I care little about where the point of impact is to where I am aiming. They are normally within 1-2-3 inches of the aiming point.

Before hunting season I will dial it in but for all purposes it is irrelevant for my hunting distances - 120 yards max.

Mike

We might be talking about two different things: accuracy and sighting in.

Accuracy (working up loads): I don't care where they impact as long as they're on paper and not wrecking another great group.

Sighting in: It depends on the cartridge and application but it's between 1.5 and 3" POI above POA. I also like to be about .25" on the left side of the vertical line (never like them grouping right of the vertical line at all) for my LR rigs. (Spin drift).

Zeke

When shooting paper, it doesn’t matter. When shooting game or bad guys, it matters a lot, especially at longer ranges.

BH63

When I'm working up loads. I adjust my point of impact so that they don't hit right on the bullseye.

If the bullets land in the bullseye it messes up the aiming point. I generally shoot targets with diamonds on them. I hold right on the bottom point of the diamond to give me the finest hold point. If the bullets land there then the aiming point will no longer be right on the point of the diamond.

Generally I like the bullets to land an inch or two above the aiming point but I don't care where as long as they don't interfere with other groups that I have shot.

quote:

Are your tiny groups dead center?

Nope. For each rifle, I have a reference load that is centered and slightly above the bull. Other loads may veer left-right and up-down yet be accurate ("tiny groups"). The one I hunt with is likely to be the reference group.

quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:
When I am testing loads and sometimes even fine tuning group size I pay very little attention to where it is in relation to the point of aim.
It's only when I'm going to hunt with it that I start playing with final centering of the group on the target.
Doesn't bug me in the slightest to shoot tiny groups 2" away from the bullseye..

This also.

I use the Leupold Sight In Target. Its the one with four black two inch squares with crosswire lines I inch apart. I sight a 1.5 to 2" high with a known load, then let the rest hit where they want. I can usually fit all my test loads on one target then by using the other 4 squares as aiming points. Zeroing is done with the load I want to use.

Interesting.
My goal is to sight in all my rifle groups (1 MOA or less) within about 1/2" of dead center at 100 yards then aim high for shots over 125 yards up to about 250 yards. Bullet drop for my 7X57's is about 10-12 inches at 250 yards for bullet weights of 154 to 175 grains.

However, close enough groups will still work as I had experienced with my last shot at a hog that was facing me at 130 yards, my POA was a half inch above the center of the eyes and the bullet had hit about 1.5 inch low and 1 inch to the left because the ammo I used didn't have the same POI as the sighted in load. Long story there. However, I did forget to 'adjust'. Not perfect but 'close enough' at that range.

I sight in my rifles 3" high at 100 yards, old school maybe, but it works for me. I try to get as close to center as possible, again it seems to work in the game fields..I limit my shooting to 300 yards as a rule, maybe 400 sometimes depending on the circumstances..

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Knight:
I use the Leupold Sight In Target. Its the one with four black two inch squares with crosswire lines I inch apart. I sight a 1.5 to 2" high with a known load, then let the rest hit where they want. I can usually fit all my test loads on one target then by using the other 4 squares as aiming points. Zeroing is done with the load I want to use.

Yes, this is approximately what I do, though with a different target paper with multiple aim points.

I've come to rely on 1.7" to 2.1" centered-high at 100 yards, depending on muzzle velocity. The idea is to keep everything within a tunnel that does not rise over 2.1" above the line of sight. Because loads sometimes are 1/4" or so off, and with heat and holding variations in the field causing slight changes, I am leery of going much over 2" sight-in at 100 yards. If someone were to use a 3" sight-in and then have the factors mentioned above add another 1/2 to 1", then the mid-point arc may be 5 or 6" high and come around 150-175 yards, which is the most common range for shooting game. The result of an unexpected 5" high exactly at game distance is . . . someimtes DRT spine shot or a runaway probably shot over the spine.

With older age and maybe some wisdom I use a sight-in that minimizes an over-shot possibility, yet still gives a trajectory that means keeping things "on hair". For me, "on hair" means never needing to hold above the animal's back line out to, say, 350 yards. Beyond that I usually have time to contemplate and sometimes a chance to move closer. In Africa, that conundrum is only about 2% of the time.

I think some of you guys are confused about the Original Posters question.
You guys are off on a tangent about how high you sight your rifles in and holdover.

I realize that some people don't do any target shooting except that handful of shots every year before they hit the field to confirm zero but other people test loads, shoot groups and do it again and again for various reasons and just to practice shooting tiny groups.

His question was when shooting tiny groups are they dead center.
My guess is the question is more about how obsessive people are about where peoples groups are on paper when shooting for tiny groups.
As I stated before when I am testing loads and shooting tiny groups they are rarely on the bullseye, just so long as they are on paper and not interfering with another aiming point I am satisfied.
At that point I am not readying the rifle to hunt I am tuning the load. Once the load is tuned and proven I make the necessary adjustments to bring the point of impact to my chosen location on the target. This will be different for deer and elk rifles than it will be for close range rifles. I then practice with the rifle for field shooting having already determined it will group.

Variations on the subject welcome. Anything that spurs additional thought is fine with me. Imagine how many inventions were spawned by a conversation or observation of something other than the exact subject of improvement.

Groups a couple inches off center or better are too far off in my opinion. Conditions are not always ideal in a hunting situation. So, I like to "stack the deck" in my favor. Might only get a chance at a head shot or get a case of the shakes/buck fever.

Snellstrom hit the nail on the head 100%. His method is the same as mine has been for a lot of years and much shooting. Once you get the group position it on the target where you want it and shoot, shoot, shoot. Good Shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by phurley5:
Snellstrom the nail on the head 100%. His method is the same as mine has been for a lot of years and much shooting. Once you get the group position it on the target where you want it and shoot, shoot, shoot. Good Shooting.

So here is some testing for group, 375 at 100 yards, and 500AccRel at 100 yards, including more practice, and
followed by ON THE FIELD verification maybe a year later.


This was a 375 Ruger, needing a 1/2, 2-clicks left with a quality scope.


This 500AccRel needed 4-clicks right and 1 click down for a 100-yard zero at 2-2.25"

Finally, on the field with a 416 loaded like a Weatherby:


So two shots by two shooters at one hundred yards off a car bonnet/hood:

Not bad for two different shooters. We dropped two clicks and 1 click left.
This is only recommended with quality scopes that are noted for "tracking" reliably.
The impala didn't know what hit it (ran maybe 30 yards?). The heart was in pieces near point of impact.

Nice groups 416tanzan.

No groups yet for the ammo for these two rifles yet. Started to rain.
The final shots after scope adjustments are circled. I'll punch some more paper closer to hunting time for a group.

All of these targets were adjusted later to hunt with, some set 2.5" high at 100 yards and some dead on some 1" high at 100.
The above groups were just to determine group size not point of impact for hunting.

I have wondered this myself, but I know the answer now. I don’t hand load, so I never considered that aspect.

This is a test target for load development for my Ruger No. 1, 270 Win.

My aiming point is the bottom of the red diamond so when I'm shooting I don't move the scope chasing the bullseye. After I shot the last group I decided that I'd use that load of 51.5 grains of Reloader 15 and left it sighted in exactly where it was, two inches high at 100 yards



My aiming point here was the fly

quote:

Originally posted by B L O'Connor:

quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:
When I am testing loads and sometimes even fine tuning group size I pay very little attention to where it is in relation to the point of aim.
It's only when I'm going to hunt with it that I start playing with final centering of the group on the target.
Doesn't bug me in the slightest to shoot tiny groups 2" away from the bullseye..

This^^^^^^^^

Period.

Yep. Me too.

Originally posted by B L O'Connor:


quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:
When I am testing loads and sometimes even fine tuning group size I pay very little attention to where it is in relation to the point of aim.
It's only when I'm going to hunt with it that I start playing with final centering of the group on the target.
Doesn't bug me in the slightest to shoot tiny groups 2" away from the bullseye..


Yep. Me too.

yep me also, but if I'm testing a load and it shoot 3" below and 3" right of center, I will a just after that group so the next time I test a load It will be somewhere above the bull's eye

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I sight in my rifles 3" high at 100 yards, old school maybe, but it works for me. I try to get as close to center as possible, again it seems to work in the game fields..I limit my shooting to 300 yards as a rule, maybe 400 sometimes depending on the circumstances..

Schoolin' ain't changed. I'm 1.5-to-2" high dude @ a hundred.

I'd rather shoot at big game at a hundred than farther.

I'll take reality over theory every time. Shooting at distance at Rocky Mountain altitude ain't an easy trick to pull off. If possible, I'll close distance every time.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:

My aiming point here was the fly

I don't know, Frank. How are we supposed to know it as a fly? I mean, it could have been a bee, spider or some other bug.

I usually like my groups to be about 1.5" to 2" above the center of the target. Depends upon which rifle I am shooting.

I test fire my guns on targets at 100, 200, 300 and 400..I sight in 3" high at 100 yards and invaribley they shoot 4 inches high at 200 yards and on at 250 to 275 yards and in some cases on at 300 yds depending on the caliber, but with my 30-06 and 338 Win with max loads this is what I get..Some claim 6 to 7.5 inches high at 200 yards but Ive never experienced that with certain bullets..I was introduced to this method when Jack O'Connor sighted my iron sighted 30-30 Win 94 carbine in at 3" high at 100 and on the money at 150, and I could hold on the back line at 200 or so..and I just never changed, guess I never knew better..

With hot varmint caliber such as my 222 Sako or 6X45 Sako I sight in at 1.5" high at 100 as a rule as pin head heads are tiny..If something works I hesitate to change it..