300WM or 30-338WM
Which do you prefer and why?
Is there enough difference to spend the money to build a 30-338?

I am not trying to be critical of the 300 win because it is a very popular calibre. However there are some things I don't care for. At 2.62 in long the case is pretty much max for use in a std length action. Bullets must be seated quite deep in order to fit a std length magazine and this robs case capacity. Some bullets are made with a protected point (especially for the 300 Win)which lowers the ballistic co-efficient, . The neck is short, shorter than I would like to see to firmly hold the bullet. The 30-338 and the 308Norma are both slightly shorter cases but usable case capacity and achievable ballistics are very similar. The longer necks hold bullets better. Are these slight differences worth purchasing a $100 set of dies instead of a std set worth $35 and having to use 100% handloaded ammo worth it. For most people no. On the other hand I have never heard of anyone being dis-appointed they built a 30-338.

Personally I would go with the 300 just because you can find ammo for it about anywhere and it does outrun the 30-338 with good handloads rather easily.
Personally again,, I have never noticed the shorter neck problem to be anything but an oft repeated non issue.
In fact I have one 7 mag that is throated out to where a barnes 140 x bulletextends no deeper into the case than 1/2 the neck.
And have never had a problem with accuracy or durability.
I have heard that it is not in deep enough to allow for consistent ignition so accuracy will suffer, BS..
The ONLY thing I can think of is if you treat your loaded shells roughly and drop them on their noses it might knock a bullet loose.
I have treated mine rather carefully for a long time when I am hunting, they are either in the rifle magazine , in a case on my belt or in a holder on the stock.

Snowman is right though, the longer necks do hold better, I just have not EVER noticed to make a bit of difference.

My vote, 300WM.
Not as sexy as a wildcat but a better round in all and available as Sally Jenkins on Saturday nights..

And Sally if you read this I apologize..

As I seem to end up saying in just about every thread, it all depends on where you plan to use it, and what for.

If I was going to use the gun for hunting world-wide, or was going even somewhere close by that I HAD to ship my ammo to, I'd take the .300 Win Mag. At least then there'd be a chance I could buy ammo locally when I got wherever I was going...if my ammo didn't show up. Of course, if I was going to hunt exclusively in Scandahoovia, I'd probably opt for the .30/.338 version known as the .308 Norma Mag. (I prefer the longer case neck for ammo that may have to take unplanned serious knocks out in the field.)

Here in the states, where I almost never shoot a round of factory ammo anyway, I'd again opt for the .30/.338. I think the shorter case fits more easily in a variety of rifles, with a variety of bullets.

I have both chamberings, so for me this isn't theory, it is the way I like/use my rifles. My .30/.338 is built on an orginal Newton rifle. I built that some years ago when a person couldn't get proper brass to make .30 Newton anymore, so rebuilt mine in what often used to be called the ".30 BELTED Newton"...a standard .338 case necked down to .30 caliber, NO other changes.

My faithful .300 win Mag. is a Ruger No. 1-V with a 24" barrel. Short enough to be handy, strong enough to take pretty much even any third world loading of the cartridge, and long-throated so as to take virtually any .30 bullet seated out properly with the base in the cartridge neck. (And still plenty accurate with factory-loaded ammo.)

You won't be disappointed with either cartridge, so pick the one you figure best fits a rifle which is correct for your own applications.

If you are into wildcats (the 30/338 is one) then you can have the best of both worlds. The 30 Clerke. A 300 Win Mag with a long neck.

Ray

I've got two 30-338mags one has a 1/10 other 1/12 twist barrel and I've been shooting that caliber alittle over 25yrs now. In that time span I've had afew 300mag build and it's a good caliber also and I know it's more than likely me but I can tune a load better for the 30-338mag.

Well good luck

Ray,what's the .300 Clerke? I've been using a long necked version of the Win designed by Fred T. Huntington(RCBS)for goin on 30yrs now and have never heard of another version. I use a .300H+H casing as a basis.

til later

Ray & EP What action are you using for your long throated 300 win? Must be a full length action?

I'm using a S&W(Howa)action.
Casing OAL(trimmed)= 68.4mm/2.7"
Cartridge OAL= 88.5mm/3.48"

I had this rifle modified back in the mid 80s when the "too short neck" debate about the .300 Winchester was still unsettled. I could have gone with the .300 Weatherby but the "Weatherbys radius shoulder is not condusive to good accuracy" debate was happening to. Once I have my .300H+H casings altered,it's just basic reloading. If I had it to do over again would I do it? No, I'd go with the Weatherby,it fits my mag box,if it didn't I'd just leave it as the Winchester it was. It's been and still is a fun rifle/cartridge though!

til later

When the 300winnie came out, the rag writers had a field day crying about the short neck. I've shot one for 30 years with 200gr bullets and never had a speck of problem. IMO its just another urban myth dreamed up by a bunch of arm chair great white hunters that needed something to write about.
I have found my .300 and other .300 winnies to be surprisingly accurate for those capable of shooting the larger calibres.
If you just want something "different", the 30-338 is a good round as is it's mirror cartridge the .300 Norma. Ballistically, any difference between the .300WM and the 30-338 is largely smoke and mirrors.

EP

It sounds like your 30 long neck is the same as the Clerke. The 30 Clerke was used by Bo Clerke to win a Wimbledon back in the 60s. He used 340 Weatherby brass, run into a FL 300WinMag die, trim to 2.7" and that's it.

And you're right, it's easier to simply go with the 300 Weatherby. You can "improve" it by getting rid of the radius shoulders.

Snow

Yes, you need a long action.

Still

For hunting or shooting tin cans there is nothing wrong with the 300 Win Mag as is. But cartridges like the Clerke, and 30/338, are needed in competition where you use the heavy bullets, loaded long, and then chase the lands as the throat wears. Very much like the difference between a 243 Ackley and a 244 Ackley.

I wouldn't consider shooters like Bo Clerke to be an "arm chair great white hunter" And the reason there is no difference, ballistically, bewteen the 300WM and the 30/338 is that short neck. A long neck 300WM will beat both the Norma and the 30/338 any day, in a long action of course.

Ray

+1 stillbeeman,but back then I was young and easily impressed by"those who knew". Something I found out not to long after I had done my rifle was that Bob Hagel had a favorite .300 Winchester Mod 700 that he long throated in order to not have to seat a 180gr bullet below the base of the case neck. Never had to increase neck length or had any problems. Anyway,for those who feel the need to increase the neck length on their .300 Winchester without any rifle alterations,Sinclair sells a gauge for measuring the OAL of YOUR chamber(of course each rifle can vary). You can take that measurement and not trim your casings as long as you keep their length to min of .024" less than the OAL of YOUR chamber. As we now know there's no problem with the Winchester neck as it is but it will eliminate unecessary trimming. Also if you check the OAL to the lands plus your mag box length and you may be able to seat the bullet out some. Or you can just leave the darn rifle be as ist is and go shoot it!
Ray,maybe Huntington and Clerke knew each other. I read about Huntingtons version in an article written by Jack Lott back in the late 70s or early 80s. I contacted Fred and received a letter in May of 84(which I still have)explaining the procedure but he doesn't mention when he started doing it. When .300 H+H casings became scarce years back I tried forming .300 Weatherby casings in my trim/form die but couldn't push the shoulder back far enough to work. Never tried my FL die though. THANKS for the info by the way!

til later

As you can see, there's always somebody with a better mouse trap. As posted above, do you want to go hunting or do you want to spend several thousand dollars and go compete at Wimbledon with a one off.

In reality I think there are a very little diference.
300 Win Mag is easy to find if you need loadet ammo or if you want to reload it. It's accurate and have a fantastic stopping power.
30-338 (like 308 Norma Mag) is not easy to find as loadet ammo and brass, have a very good stopping power and fantastic accuracy.
So if you're looking for a caliber to hunt buy the 300 Win, if you need a new gun for long range shooting buy the 30-338.
But don't forget that all this are theories, caliber is only one of many components of a gun.

Faina

Both excellent choices and I would probably opt for the 300 Win. Mag. but I will state outright the 30-338 is the better designed, more efficient, case by a long shot, and is what Winchester should have done in the first place...

This is all immaterial now as the .300 Winchester is a BIG success. But Winchester could have met the "supposedly" optimumal neck length of matching the diameter of caliber the cartridge is using,in this case .308,by adding a mear .044" to its .264" neck thereby exceeding the length of the .30-338 by a whopping .0094"! Also,if a person were to measure their chamber I bet most could let their casings get to that "magical"neck length without alterations to the neck area of the chamber. I'm probably missing something as I'm sure Winchester had their reason for doing what they did. Really,I like all .30 cal mags.

til later

The .300 Winchester Magnum would be my pick, because I own one again and am very pleased with it again. I can get ammo pretty much anywhere. Load development is extensive. It is proven time and time again in the field. This is not to knock the .308 Norma or .30-.338, both of which are so close in performance to the Winchester with slightly longer necks and lower capacity. But the Winchester is out there, available everywhere, and while it may not be perfect, it's pretty damned close for what it was designed to do.

Let's admit it guys. Winchester screwed up. When they introduced the 300 Win Mag they SHOULD have made it just like the wildcat 30/338 but instead they tried to make a 30 Short Magnum that WASN'T the same as the 308 Norma. Lengthening the case 1/10" didn't do anything because they still had to keep the OAL down to 3.340" and the only way to do that was to seat the bullets deeper and that effectively ate up any increase in case capacity gained from the longer case.

JMHO

Ray

HEY!! It IS perfect,just different.

til later

Something ".300 Mag" to ponder on...

Would the .308 Norma Mag really have taken off if the timing and method of its introduction had been a little different?

When Winchester brought out the .338 Win Mag, everyone figured it would be closely followed by a simple Winchester neck-down to .30 caliber (and 7m/m too, BTW). A great many shooters I knew, both hunters and target shooters were eagerly awaiting that day.

So, when the .308 Norma was anounced, they didn't buy it for two reasons.

First it was not immediately available in factory rifles. Rather, one could buy reamers and gauges from Norma, to re-do their .30-06s. Norma brass was also sort-of available, but very pricey and hard to get. Some shooters did get .308 Normas that way, but most decided they would rather just buy an off-the-shelf rifle (at least in those days).

Second, they were waiting for the exact version of the Winchester .30/.338 - They liked the Model 70 they knew it would be chambered in, and they liked the idea of factory brass and cartridges available everywhere in NA, supported by the Winchester market penetration and distribution.


As it turned out, apparently both firms sorta diddled the pooch. Norma lost an immense market by not making sure rifles and ammo were available (probably through some partnership arrsangement with one of the large American firms), and Winchester knee-jerk reacted to get something out there to for-sure hold onto that potential market. But, it had to be something .308 Norma Mag cartridges wouldn't work in, so we ended up with what we got.

(Winchester also produced the brainstorm of introducing the 6.5 Winchester Mag [AKA .264 Winchester Magnum] during the same 5 or so year period.)

But, I often have wondered...what would we all be shooting today if Norma hadn't jumped the gun (intentional pun) by bringing out the .308 Norma Mag before guns and ammo could be put in place...thereby forcing Winchester to bring out something other than what everyone thought they would.....the .300 Winnie Mag instead of the .30/.338?

The reason Winchester didn't introduce the 30-338 was the very simple reason it had already been introduced!! As the .308 Norma.

quote:

Originally posted by stillbeeman:
The reason Winchester didn't introduce the 30-338 was the very simple reason it had already been introduced!! As the .308 Norma.

Yes, that's why I said both firms had screwed up.

1. Winchester, by not beating Norma to the punch with the .30-.338, and

2. Norma by not making rifles and ammo widely available when they introduced it.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by stillbeeman:


Yes, that's why I said both firms had screwed up..

roger

Had both at one time, usable powder capacity for me is better in the .30-338

No problem with the dies, the old RCBS dies came with the Higgins FN .30-338 and is "standard" long action, hence lighter weight overall. That claw extractor looks pretty good on that rifle as well.

Have plenty of .338 Win. Mag brass new/used so never a shortage of brass.

Plus I think it was Huntington developed this round before the introduction of the .300Win. Mag. so to me that is a major plus

I too, find my .30-338 to quite accurate - sub moa's

would not personally own another .300WM