The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles 308 or 30-06?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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looking at buying a Sako 85 synthetic stainless as a second rifle to take with me deer hunting,problem is I can't decide which caliber to get.I have a 6.5 Swede from before so my gut feeling says short action ie 308.What do you guys think?Main use would be roe and red deer,occasionally moose.regards Toby | ||
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Toby, ballistically, they are as alike as two peas in a pod. Although many will assail you with all the points of superiority of the .30/'06, in actuality I defy any of them to choose between wounds made by either firing bullets of the same weight. Yes, I have used 220-grain bullets in a .308, and they worked quite effectively on large game at a mere 2300 FPS. If you want a light, handy rifle get a .308. If you want ballistics from a .30 cal. rifle with a statistically significant improvement over a .308, get a .300 Win. Mag. or a .300 Weatherby. If you can find a real deal on a .30/'06, well, the '06 is still an excellent round as well. If I were going to use up some of my finite energy comparing two different rifle cartridges, it would NOT be between a 308 and a .30/'06, the 7mm'08 and the 7X57mm, or the 6.5X57mm and the 6.5X55 Swede....... "Bitte, trinks du nicht das Wasser. Dahin haben die Kuhen gesheissen." | |||
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The .30-06 is my favorite cartidge, hands down. That said, if you want a short action, get the .308. You'll never notice a difference in the field.  Aut vincere aut mori | |||
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I agree "Let me start off with two words: Made in America" | |||
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Neither ; 7 MM Mag or 300 Mag , IMO better choice . | |||
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Then I'd prefer a heavier 200 grain bullet and the 30-06 wins this debate in my opinion. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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 nailed rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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I dont think a moose will notice the difference between an 06 and a 308 shooting the same bullet, which for me would be a decent load with the 165 Interbond.  | |||
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Ballistically the two are about too close to call. However I prefer the 308 for a couple reasons. One, the 308 is on average, slightly more accurate than the 30-06 - note this is thoroughly proven fact argueing it is pointless. Two, I prefer a short action. Three, the 308 is available in several light, handy rifles that are great for hunting. I love my Steyr Scouts. It's also available in some really nice Sniper type rifles that you won't find the 30-06 in. Four, 308 ammo is usually more available surplus, some 30-06 surplus is available but not as often and in as much variety as 308. If you love older Springfields, P-17's and other Pre-War rifles the 30-06 would be the way to go but for modern hunting rifles I think the 308 performs slightly better overall.....................DJ ....Remember that this is all supposed to be for fun!.................. | |||
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owning both calibers i'd say flip a coin their both great rounds, for sure you'd get the same great quality from sako.so it really boils down to long or short action. great advice given as usual regards | |||
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For larger animals than deer there is a considerable difference between the '08 and '06, particularly with heavier bullets. Not sure what the elk or caribou "thought" about the difference but there was one from my perspective. Given 24" barrels for both the '06 because of it's larger capacity and ability to use slower powders will drive a 190-200 gr bullet about 400 fps faster than the '08. That is a considerable difference. The medium action of the '08 inhibits case capacity when heavy bullets are used where the '06 in a standard action does not. If you're using factory ammo then there's not much difference but if you handload there is a lot of difference. I hunted with an '08 years ago but when I used the '06 I quit using the '08, at least for big game hunting. Depends on your needs though. Larry Gibson | |||
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Larry, put the crack pipe down. Here is data from Hodgdon for the .30-06: 200 GR. SPR SP 200 H4831 .308" 3.230" 57.5C 2577 49,400 CUP 200 GR. SPR SP 200 H4350 .308" 3.230" 53.0 2544 49,100 CUP 200 GR. SPR SP 200 H4895 .308" 3.230" 43.5 2421 49,200 CUP now for the .308: 200 GR. SFT SP 200 IMR 4064 .308" 2.700" 42.5C 2466 58,400 PSI 200 GR. SFT SP 200 IMR 4895 .308" 2.700" 43.2C 2476 59,000 PSI Interestingly enough, with H4895, you get mnore velocity out of the .308 than the .30-06. Sure, the .30-06 will squeeze out a few more fps but the difference is slight and only an armchair hunter would know the difference. | |||
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More  from the master BS'er.Load them both to the same pressure and the 30-06 will top the .308 by a full 250 feet per second. Any handloader worth his salt can make the 200 grain bullets do 2,700 feet per second from the 30-06. | |||
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 Yes, the .30-06 is loaded to a slightly lower pressure level than the .308 Win but a difference of 400 fps is ridiculous. I'll quibble a little with duikerman and say the difference is more like 150-200 fps.
IMHO, either the .308 Win or .30-06 would work just fine but I'd opt for the .30-06. Cheers! -Bob F.  | |||
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30-06! | |||
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Look you cunt, go to Hodgdon's website and check it out. The point being, that Larry was dead wrong claiming 400+fps difference. And you, if you're calling BS on me, then you may as well add Hodgdon. | |||
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Bob, well put. My experience has been no more than 150fps but as I say, no animal will know. And for the non handloader, Hornady's lite magnum's are great. | |||
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TR, Also, I think the .30-06 would give you just a little more flexibility if you wanted to use heavy bullets.  From Woodleigh's brochure: Loads for 30-06 Springfield 240gr PP bullet. We suggest you start 5% lower and work up. 48 grains Hodgdon H4350 (ADI AR2209), 2250 FPS, Federal 210 primer. 54 grains Hodgdon H4831SC (ADI AR 2213SC), 2350 FPS, Federal 210 primer. 59 grains Hodgdon H1000 (ADI AR2217), 2300 FPS, Federal 215 primer. see: http://www.woodleighbullets.com.au/images/Woodleigh%20B...02006%20(insert).pdf Cheers! -Bob F. | |||
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So if you can the 30.06 to throw a 200 grain bullet at 2700 fps and it is 400 fps faster than the 308. Then the 308 can only get 2,300 fps with the 200 grain bullet. We'd better call ALL the bullet and powder manufacturers and tell them that they ALL have errors in their data and they are ALL dangerously overloading their 308's. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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As I suspected. Not much experience. | |||
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Toby, Since you already have the 6.5 go with the 30/06 - Will give you a little more versitility using heavy 30 cal bullets. ________ Ray | |||
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Toby, I think it all comes down to one issue. Do you want a short action rifle, or a rifle with a long action? The 30-06 is always going to give you more velocity for a given bullet weight, given IDENTICAL pressures. One chart above showed the 308 operating at much higher pressures than the 30-06. That's a nonsense comparison. Don | |||
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Actually the velocity increase is only part of the story and because the energy is proportional to the square of the velocity the .30-06 then has 21% more muzzle energy than the .308. At 200 yards this may indeed be insignificant as dead moose is dead moose but at 400 yards the 21% might in fact be important. The .308 has it's place......in such arms as the Winchester 100 the Winchester 88 the Savage 99 and other arms that are just not physically suited for the longer .30-06. However for the 3/8" longer bolt throw I'd very easily opt for the longer range cartridge. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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TR, I actually don't like it when folks don't answer the original question directly, so first off, I like your idea of a 30 bore, and I agree with the .308 in a the 85. But I just toss out a thought, the Sako's hold four down in the magazine in the short mags, and the 300 WSM gives you some more velocity, is really good with the medium to light for caliber 30 bullets, and keeps you in the short action, plus it's just a good bit different than the 6.5 Swede for sure....if you reload, the WSM's are really easy to make great ammo when reloading....just a thought--Don | |||
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Thanks for all the replies so far.Fish,the theory sounds good but recoil wise I think that the 06 is my limit.Jury still out but 308 still my favourite at the moment.Cheers T | |||
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Rem721 My experience is those who only quote from manuals usually have little experience or knowledge of their own. Having several .308s of various barrel lengths one is hard pressed to get 2400 fps with a 200 gr bullet from a 26" barrel let alone the standard length of 22" barrels for the .308. On the other hand there are many factory, old and current, that still offer 24" barrels with the 30-06. You might measure the barrel of a 30-06 Remington M721 30-06, if you have one of your namesake, and you will find it to be 24". However, all that aside as I specified 24" barrels for both the '08 and the '06. As was mentioned in another post loading both to equal safe pressures, since we're talking the same actions here, will in fact enable a 400 fps gain with the '06. My facts are based on working up loads in both cartridges in several rifles of each caliber and chronographing them over an Oehler 35P. If you want to dispute the accuracy of the chronograh readings perhaps you should take that up with Dr. Oehler. I should note that I said "about 400 fps more" not 400+ fps more. That is a fact that this armchair hunter has found out and is why I've killed numerous elk, deer, caribou and a 188 7/8th Rocky Mountain Sheep along with sundry other critters with the '06. But then I've also killed several with the '08 so I guess my armchair experience by actually hunting, killing animals with both and hard facts from actual loading and chronographing don't mean much....now where'd I put that crack pipe...... Larry Gibson | |||
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TR If the .308 is your favorite then by all means that is the one to get. For your choice of game (roe and the occasional moose) it will do nicely. Just stay within the limits of the cartridge and your shooting ability and you will do fine with the .308. Also if you don't reload take a look at the Hornady Lite Magnum loads for the .308. Also if you reload it has been my experience that the 180 gr bullets take up less case capacity than the 200 gr bullets and give a proportionately higher velocity. The 180s were also as effective on the larger animals as the 200 gr bullets. Good luck and thanks for the stimulating thread. Larry Gibson | |||
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Man, you really need reading lessons! | |||
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Larry, If you are getting 2800fps with 200gr bullets with a 24" barreled 30-06 you are doing so at signifigantly too high pressures. Magic barrels that will shoot 200fps faster than dozens of pressure barrels simply don't exist.........................DJ ....Remember that this is all supposed to be for fun!.................. | |||
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TR, I have shot moose both with the .308 and the aught six. Could not tell abit of difference from either. I personally favor the .06 and am justified with the use and like bullets that are heavier-the aught six has the edge. What ever floats your boat with action selection. regards, | |||
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Like to know where I said that (stated 2800 fps with 200 gr bullet)? The fact of the matter is factory .308 Winchester 200 gr PPs chronographed 2276 fps out of a 22" barrel M700. The 200 gr Speer over H4831SC in an '06 M721 with 24" barrel ran 2745 fps. Not exactly 400 fps but "about 400 fps" as I said. Since you all seem to want to quote manuals and make inferences that the load I'm talking about is "at significantly too high pressures" let's take a look at Lyman's manual. Note they use a 24" pressure barrel for the 30-06. Note they list a max load of 58 gr H4831 with a CUP of 46,000 (a compressed load as that's all of regular H4831 you'll get in an '06 case) giving 2620 fps. Note that with a few other powders they list the max load CUPs as 50-50,100. Now given the fact that 50,100 CUP is listed as a safe pressure don't you think if you could get more 4831 in the '06 case you could safely load it up to 50,100 CUP? Sounds safe to me and so it is. With H4831SC you CAN get more powder in the '06 case, 3 more gr specifically. Thus a 61 gr load of H4831SC in WW cases fire formed and neck sized is a safe load giving no pressure signs what so ever. The M721 and a new M70 Classic Hunter both have pretty short throats so this is a slightly compressed load as is the max listed in the Lyman manual. This is a classic case of those who have walked the walk vs those who just talk the talk. So I'd suggest you get out of the armchair (as I do), get a chronograph, get an '06 with a 24-26" barrel and load some up and test them your self. Then come back and tell me about it. Larry Gibson | |||
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2400 + 400 = 2800. BTW I've loaded for a half dozen or so different 30-06 and more and a dozen 308's, and I have a chronograph. I don't use 200gr bullets in either but a 400fps difference between the two round is fiction in any of the other bullet weights it's the same with the 200's................DJ ....Remember that this is all supposed to be for fun!.................. | |||
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Hmm - 30-06 Roland | |||
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I like both. Would likely choose the .308 for game smaller than mule deer, the -06 for larger. But, that difference is based on handloads to equal pressures and that is somewhat more than loading manuals suggest for the old rifle round. NEVER heard anyone suggest that fewer cubic inches in a racing motor didn't make any difference. Even if the -06 difference isn't great it's still there and bigger is always better. Any potential accuarcy difference between the two cartridges, especially in a hunting rifle, will be too small to be detectable in the field. What is it supposed to be on average, a quarter minute, IIRC? That would mean you MIGHT miss the point of aim by an additional eight of an inch at 100 yds! Sure, that matters some for a target rifle but not with a deer-moose-elk rifle. I feel that a short action is of absolutely no advantage if the bolt is properly operated. | |||
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Larry, Here's one of my loads for my 30-06 with a 200 gr bullet. Note that my rifle has a 22" barrel. Date: 4/21/2002 Cartridge: .30-06 Firearm: Ruger M77 MkII Barrel Length: 22" Bullet: 200 gr Sierra SBT Powder: RL-22 Powder Charge: 58.0 gr Case Make: W-W Primer: WLR C.O.L. 3.20" Chrono Summary: Average Velocity: 2,645 fps Average Energy: 3,108 ft lb So I'd agree that getting 2700 fps or so with a 200 gr bullet in a .30-06 with a 24" barrel is certainly possible. But, you're comparing only one (an example or sample of one) chronographed 200 gr .308 Win factory load in a 22" barrel to your .30-06 handload in a 24" barrel. Frankly, I do not have a .308 Winchester. But, looking over the loading manuals I think the .308 Winchester will do a bit better than the 2276 fps that you got with the factory load with a 200 gr bullet in a 22" barrel. Also, Ken Waters in his Pet Loads book gives several loads for the .308 Win with a 200 gr bullet that ran from 2478 to 2561 fps from his 24" barrel. That's why I was a bit skeptical of the 400 fps difference in top velocities between the .308 and the .30-06 with heavy bullets. And, by the way, in Ken's article he shows that he got an average of 2346 fps with the W-W .308 Win 200 gr Silvertip factory load in his 24" barrel. -Bob F. | |||
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Makes sense, and good thinking. The 308's in the Sako 85's I have are absolute tackdrivers. Could look at some logs to give you an idea on some measured velocities if you'd like. I shoot a lot of the TSX in 150 gr. and recoil is mild, and I feel like the TSX makes that a hell of an all around loading. Good shooting--Don | |||
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Don brings up a point that hasn't been mentioned here. With modern bullet designs like the TSX you don't need 200gr bullets to acheive complete penetration of large animals. A 180gr TSX in a 308 is probably going to outpenetrate yesteryears 30-06 200gr loads. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if the 168gr out of the 308 would also............................DJ ....Remember that this is all supposed to be for fun!.................. | |||
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In my match rifles, I can load a 200 SMK 100 fps faster in a 30-06 than I can load a 190 SMK in a 308. Both are great cartridges. I still think the 30-06 is more flexible, on the heavy end. six of one, half dozen of another. | |||
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You consider using factory ammunition in a 22" barreled 308 versus your max pressure handloads in a 24" barreled 30.06 a legitimate way to compare the capabilities of both cartridges? How about getting off the couch and comparing a 22" barreled 308 to a 22" barreled 30.06 loaded to SAAMI specs (or even the same pressure)? Speaking of "talking the talk" Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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 When I was a young lad hanging out in the back room of a gun store there was the 30-06 and close behind it was the .300 Savage. Now we have the 30-06 not far behind it the .308 and on it's coat tails the .300 Savage. Did the .308 realy fill any void  or did it just get popular because of its military status , aboundant brass, and Marketing savy as a new toy?  From a pure performance standpoint the .308 has brought nothing to the table. It is here to stay but it never was needed.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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