The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles Solid copper bullets, are inside notches needed?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Working with one shop on solid copper bullets, will use CNC lathe to turn them. Range .277” to .375”. Questions; In order to get reliable expansion, even at lower velocities, like 2000 fps, are notches needed inside bullet’s cavity? Any bullet on the market that does not have those notches, and still opens reliably? In order to make reliable expansion without notches, I was thinking about bit larger cavity than usual on .308” bullet, see:  The cavity will be plugged with a tip. Discussing about possibility of making tip from brass or aluminum, instead of plastic. Will try to make some prototypes and test them at lower velocities, like 2000-2100 fps, to make sure that bullet will open reliably in all conditions. Please let me know what is your experience and opinion. Thanks. | ||
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No you don’t. I make mine with a simple drill. Expands exactly like all commercial copper bullets. Recovered bullets | |||
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Over here in the UK we have been using the Fox and Peregrine bullets. They don’t have any notches internally but seem to work very well on deer sized animals. I have taken Roe, Sika and Red to 250 metres with 7x57, 7x65r and 223 and all deer pretty much drop on the spot or run just a few yards before dropping. More details and pictures http://new.ersg.com/non-lead-bullets-and-ammunition | |||
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I think it will depend on the alloy your using. copper is one thing... copper alloy is another. | |||
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I use pure copper, sold at building construction suppliers places. I have had suppliers offering me all sorts of "special" alloys for bullets. Never took them up on it. Use very cheap Indian made copper. Works like a treat! | |||
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Thank you all for so much info, especially that those notches are not required. That is a big plus! One thing I don't like about those petals crated by notches in the cavity; they have tendency to separate from main body, and that could cause bullet to tumble, reducing penetration and no exit wound. Also, I found this: “Peregine Monolithics Extremely good terminal effect on game with reliable expansion down to terminal velocities as low as 1600fps.” http://new.ersg.com/non-lead-b....inventorsdigest.com Edinburgh Rifles and Sporting Goods: Proven Expansion down to 2100fps (imagine a factory 6.5×55 load impacting at 600yds) http://new.ersg.com/products/fox-non-lead-bullets If I manage to get reliable opening at 2100 fps, that will be an excellent starting point. | |||
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Don't over think on this. Make the bullets and hunt with them. There is no absolute guarantee, but I can assure you you will not be disappointed. | |||
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Sir, thank you for this thread, you had done tremendous work collecting all those bullets. I had never seen collection like this, I am following publications and on various hunting and shooting forums for more than quarter of the century. And great work making those bullets! | |||
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My thoughts are forget about the tip. Leave it as a hollow point. By adding a tip you are adding another operation which is not needed. | |||
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Sadly, I don't have access to Saeed's bullets, but I have used most of the commercially available mono-metal bullets. As for those that do not have notches, the most experience I have had is with Lapua Naturalis. They work great and expand very well. I have also used Peregrine, as was mentioned in an earlier post and they also work. ______________________________________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who are bereft of that gift. | |||
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For shorter distances, I agree, tip is not needed. However, we are hunting in mountainous areas, where shots are fired from the cliff or rock bellow at 50-60 m, or another side of the gorge at 200 m or more. In that case, a bullet with good HP and no tip will loose velocity quite rapidly. Our wild boars could be as big as 250 kg (550 lbs), and they tough animals. If not hit properly in a right place, with right bullet, they go long distances before collapsing. And to track them down without good, solid blood trail, in a dens bush and rugged terrain, is in many cases impossible. That makes a good exit wound a mandatory. As for hunting dogs, we can forget it in some areas. Too many wolves around, and they are heavily protected by law, so many of us gave up using dogs. For all noted reasons, I personally prefer 8mm or 338 rifle, with solid copper bullet, 180 grains, at 2800-2900 fps muzzle velocity. However, since majority here prefer 30-06 or 300 WM or 300 WSM, we will start with 308 bullets. Yeah, we can buy Barnes ones, but they cost us about 1,2 euro a piece, plus shipping from Germany. | |||
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No, the notches are not needed. They are used on CEB Raptors to control how the petals break off. (Breaking petals is just one way of building them.) I think that the size of the hole is critical. GSC Bullets often don't expand at all in 7mm and 30-06 at standard velocities. Total Failure. They say it is because the hole is too small. My son and I hunted about 20 PG, big and small, with them one year with 7x64 7mm RM and 30-06. Most were failures. I have seen GSC bullet expand picture perfect in .375wm where the hole is a bit larger in diameter. IHMSA BC Provincial Champion and Perfect 40 Score, Unlimited Category, AAA Class. | |||
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Barnes X have notches. Mine don’t. I have used both, extensively, and the performance of both bullets have been identical. Couldn’t possibly ask for better performance. | |||
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I have used the Barnes TSX bullets extensively and have never had one fail. I have just ordered some of their new polymer tipped LRX bullets in 0.284" diameter and weighing 139 grains. I will be interested to see how they shoot and perform on game. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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I have shot animals at over 500 yards with my 375/404 and my hollow point bullets. As long as you can make a good guess of the drop, there is no problem! I also think there is a big element of luck in it. So far I have been very lucky. | |||
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Sir, are you using any kind of coating for your bullets? I was thinking about dipping them in beeswax, in order to get bit of lubrication and to reduce copper fouling. | |||
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I use this spray. Works great. Molly spray works too, but changed to this as I could not find it when I wanted it. There is no difference in performance that I can tell. | |||
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Saeed, what size of hollow point do you put in your bullets? Thanks. | |||
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They are designed to instigate the mushroom we all tout so highly, does it work, dunno and don't care as a matter of fact as both seem to work most of the time!! Ive seen the perfect mushroom with Barnes wherein others blow pedals more so..but not sure that means much, they are all just another decent bullet these days IMO.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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!!! THIS !!! | |||
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Sometimes I wonder what constitutes a failure? Failure to expand? Had lots of these. Failure to go straight in the animal? Had lots of these. Failure to maintain weight? Had many of these. But all the animals died! | |||
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Me, too. It's like the famous surgeon who said, "The operation was a success, but the patient died." Can't have it both ways! Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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If I were in the bullet design business, I would design so that reliable expansion occcured down ~1600 fps as it will appeal to a wider range of shooters... Most long range bullets to day have minimum expansion requirments at or below 1600 fps. Consider a 180 grain bullet launched from a 308 win at 2625 fps is travelling 1650 fps at 600 yards. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Check out hammerbullets.com. They would disagree on using pure copper. Weatherby is loading their bullets in factory ammo. Quick, Cheap, or Good: Pick Two | |||
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Cavity back and maker bullets have another approach to ensuring expansion by cutting slits in the outside of the nose. They work very well also. Shoot straight, shoot often. Matt | |||
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What size holes are you drilling for the different calibers. | |||
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Do you mean the critters did not die or were not recovered. | |||
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The GS custom bullets are known to expand reliably in 338 calibers and larger. However they seem to require very high velocities, I'm told, in 30 cal. and smaller to perform terminally as advertised. They did not perform as advertise for us, as discussed above. They did not expand/open and the animals went a long ways before going down. ( All animals were recovered of course.) I report this to be helpful to other hunters. This is just my experience. Brian IHMSA BC Provincial Champion and Perfect 40 Score, Unlimited Category, AAA Class. | |||
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Thanks for the reply | |||
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Saeed, you are the man when it comes to innovation! Thank you for this post about Tungsten Disulfide spray (WS2). I looked into it, outstanding lube for certain applications. Also the powder/dry form. Can you please tell me how you apply the WS2 spray to your bullets? Spray and tumble? Are there any tricks? This stuff might be awesome for bolt lugs, triggers and feed ramps into chambers. Thank you so much for your innovative tips and advice. Brian Gallup IHMSA BC Provincial Champion and Perfect 40 Score, Unlimited Category, AAA Class. | |||
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I shot loads of game in Africa and the USA in 7x57, 30-06,6x45, 25-35 and 30-30 with GS Customs bullets and never had a failure, got decent exit holes mostly and quick kills, I particularly liked the flat nose solids on buff and Hippo and the heavy PG.. Im thinking however my all time favorite bullets are Accubonds and the more I use them the better I like them, I also like Nosler Partition as well as any monolithic.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I am absolutely convinced that the number of operator failures exceed the number of bullet failures by a considerable margin. Internet vs reality. AK-47 The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like. | |||
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I am now swaging my own for at least 6 different calibers. As a bullet swager I have to say, Nosler makes a damn good cup and core bullet. Testing 8mm ballistic tips really impressed me. They held together much better than I ever expected. Accubonds are excellent. AK-47 The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like. | |||
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