I have some old WCC 54 headstamped cases. They measure headspace of 2.0200" which is way less than SAAMI specs. I also have many Super Speed cases that measure 2.0470" - 2.0485" after fired in my rifle. These are also a little less than specs, but are from my rifle. My question is, can I safely load these 2.0200" cases. Will they fire form to my chamber safely?

Thanks,

I'm assuming that the WCC brass is 1X milsup?? Anyway, to answer your question, I don't see why not. I'm curious about the variance in length of the brass that has been fired in your rifle. How are you arriving at your measurements?
When you resize your brass, I'd use the Partial Full Length method.

You didn't say how many you have but if the number is small I'd merely pitch them.

If you want you can neck them up to .35 caliber and then down to .30 caliber leaving a small forward bump for the case to headspace on and on the next firing you will fireform the case to your chamber.

Whether this is something you want to do is up to you.....but firing the case "as-is" will create a weakened webb in the case head leading to early case separation.....and IMO this is not worth it!

I actually suspect the shortened headspace brass will fire in your chamber as I've seen greater headspace issues that fired! It may also separate on the first firing but probably not.

If they was mine....I'd pitch them regardless of the count!

wasbeeman,
I am using the Hornady cartridge headspace guages with a digital caliper. I rotate the case in the bushing and against the fixed arm of the caliper to be certain it is straight. Maybe the force I am applying is varying the 1-1/2 thous.
Is a partial full length sizing to avoid shoulder set back? I am fairly new to this. For fired brass in my rifle only, would neck sizing only be required?

Thanks for the response.

vapodog,
I've only got 43 of these. They are part of what was my dad's stash from back in the late 50s, early 60s. Most of what I have are Super Speed head stamps. So, I guess tossing them would not be a big deal, and probably save me some grief in the future. I'm not bench rest shooting, just casual target, so nothing super critical.

Thanks guys,

quote:

They are part of what was my dad's stash from back in the late 50s,

For some of us that's all it takes to decide to salvage them.....

Maybe just put them in a ziplock with a note and get on with life.....let them reside in peace!

As to .001-.0015 variation in measurement....forget it...it's not enough to be concerned about!

Further I believe wasbeeman misunderstood the situation....partial full length resizing won't solve this issue!....

Some lots of that military Winchester brass is sought after. I know guys that sell a lot of the WCC 53 head stamp and it's quoted as being really good brass and mentioned that some famous wildcatter bases all his 06 wildcats off that brass mentioned.

I think what I'd do is pull the bullets, fire the primers, anneal the necks and shoulders (very very light anneal, not over annealed) bump up to larger caliber like vapordog mentioned and set your sizer to just let the case chamber with a snug bolt. You may get a lot of life out of them. I'm using WCC 53 brass in various other calibers (7x57 Mauser at the moment) with many firings.

If you decide to pull the bullet it's easier to pull the military bullets if you just seat the bullets a tad deeper first. This breaks the sealant that was put on the bullet and makes them easier to pull.

SmokinJ,
These are cases only, deprimed. I don't know if my dad full length sized these or not. It would have been done on an old Lyman EZ-Loader with the old Lyman dies (which I was using until recently). I imagine they must have been fired at some time. I still have a box that appears to be military with "20 cartridges BALL caliber .30 AN-M2 Lot W.C.C. 6878, Western Cartridge Company, Division of Olin industries, inc."

quote:

Originally posted by hdog:
SmokinJ,
These are cases only, deprimed. I don't know if my dad full length sized these or not. It would have been done on an old Lyman EZ-Loader with the old Lyman dies (which I was using until recently). I imagine they must have been fired at some time. I still have a box that appears to be military with "20 cartridges BALL caliber .30 AN-M2 Lot W.C.C. 6878, Western Cartridge Company, Division of Olin industries, inc."

Well that's good. I'd give them a light anneal as I said and go from there as described by vapordog and myself.

Vapo, I didn't misunderstand the question, my comment about PFL resizing was a suggestion for his future reloading.

A lot of military rifles have more headspace than this, by design, in order to function reliably in combat. The SMLE's were famous for it.

I would reload them with a very mild load with the bullets seated out to touch the lands, then fire to fireform. Single load the rifle. Then I would anneal mildly and be good to go.

How do you "anneal something mildly'??

Excuse the generality. I would anneal as little as possible of the case, getting only the part of the shoulder (upper) which might have moved forward and the neck (which can't be avoided). I use the water method and would use a deep pan fill, with the neck and shoulder only standing out. It is quicker and more controllable to just heat this smaller section.

Here is a photo of a Super Speed case fired from my rifle on the left. The WCC54 case is on the right. You can see the difference in the shoulder surfaces. The OAL of the cases are the same, even though the photo shows different. Woahh, sorry for the huge photo. Should have sized it for posting.

Those have both been fired from the same rifle??

The one on the right is unfired ? There is more to this than meets the eye. That is not the shoulder of a 30-06. Mystery to be sure. roger

hdog

What rifle?

Larry Gibson

Sorry I wasn't clear about the 2 cases. The one on the right I don't know anything about (fired or not fired). The case on the left was fired from my rifle. The case on the right (and I am guessing) was probably purchased by my dad back in the late '50s. I was a young teenager then and didn't pay much mind to what he was doing. I figure that WCC54's came with the boxes I described in an earlier post. Namely the "20 cartridges BALL caliber .30 AN-M2 Lot W.C.C. 6878, Western Cartridge Company, Division of Olin industries, inc.". I will leave these alone unless and until I find it safe to use in my 30-06.

hdog

They may be fine to use. What rifle is your 30-06?

Larry Gibson

Winchester model 54 s/n 32xxxA. It was my dad's. I am fairly certain it is at least 70 yrs. old.

quote:

Originally posted by hdog:
Winchester model 54 s/n 32xxxA. It was my dad's. I am fairly certain it is at least 70 yrs. old.

Those cases should still be fine to use with that M54. Load them with a midrange load 4895 under a 150 - 180 gr bullet. Seat the bullets out so they are a pushed into the leade (rifling) on chambering. Pressures will not be excessive with the mid range load. The bullet against the leade will hold the case against the bolt face so, on firing, the shoulders will be blown forward thus fire forming the cases to the M54s chamber. Feed the rounds from the magazine so the rim slips up under the extractor. The CRF extractor of the M54 will hold the cases back for positive firing. These should make decent practice loads while fire forming.

Once fire formed they are good to go just like your other cases. When sizing the cases, if not just neck sizing with a correct NS die, adjust the full length sizer so it sizes the cases just enough for easy chambering. There is no need to completely FL size if you don't have to.

Fine rifle BTW.

Larry Gibson

Thank you very much Larry. That is awsome detailed information. I will use some cast bullets of that weight range. Thanks again.

hdog

Larry,
Instead of using 4895, would it be OK to use 2400 with a 165gr cast 311413 bullet. My 41st ed. of Lyman reloading handbook lists a sug. gr. of 19.7 (max.24.9gr)of 2400. For 4895, it lists sug. gr. of 25.0 (max. 35.0gr). I realize these powder charge recommendations are from an old (1957)manual. I happen to have the 2400 from the same era and no 4895. I have no problem purchasing the 4895, as I see it being a pet powder for the 30-06. I appreciate you opinions.

Thanks,
hdog

Might be ok IF the case head is held tightly against the bolt face during firing. Faster powders generate psi faster. thus the case could be driven forward by the blow of the fireing pin to the extent the extractor allows. The case then expandes and the case head is pushed back stretching the case in the web. That is not what is wanted. What is wanted is the case head to stay against the bolt face and the shoulder to fire form forward. If the rim is a tight fit under the extractor then I'd try the 2400. With the 311413 and 2400 I'd suggest barely starting the bullets in the case upside down and let the GC seat agains the leade (rifling). You should be able to seat them the rest of the way when chambering. That will give the case a good solid fit against the bolt face.

Larry Gibson

I understood your post until the "upside down" comment. Are you suggesting this operation to seat the gas check and then place the bullet in the case and close the bolt to seat the bullet? I plan to use a Lyman 45 lubrisizer to lube and seat the gas check. Anyway, I will purchase some 4895 and follow your previous post.

Well, I struck out on trying to fing 4895 powder. Local shops are out of it. My on line vendor sites are also out. Must be a really popular powder.

Sometimes I think we can get too technical on these blogs..

During WW2, ammo was impossible to come by, but there was some of that milsurp stuff out there. mostly on the black market, and most of Americas hunters filed off the tips and shot deer with them.

My dad had a ranch near Ft. Bliss, at El Paso, texas and at the end of the month if the army had stuff left over they came out to our ranch and burried it and paid dad to do so..He dug it up and got a heck of a lot of ammo, some barrels of gas and such things as coffee and tea, all this stuff was rationed..but if the army couldn't show its use the govt would then short them for the following month, thus the dumping took place nation wide I suppose.

I, had the ammo to shoot and I shot literally thousands of that kind of ammo in my guns early on, we gave everyone in the family and all our friends a ton of that ammo. most of those guns were mod. 54s, Springfields, and 8mm/06s and later on the Win. 70s, and the cases simply fireformed to the chambers, end of story.

In the real world that is very little movement. That ammo was sized to work through M1 garands, but tons of it was shot through Springfields.

Early on every reloader I knew shot 30-06 ammo in the then popular 35 Whelan and the 8mmx06s, and they fireformed the cases by shooting the milsurp 30-06 ammo through them by the hundreds, and I never heard of a mishap, only read about such stuff in a couple of magazines and that was more rumor than fact.

I would be more concerned as to what kind of primers it had and be sure not to shoot corrosive ammo in any gun.

A buddy of mine accidently ran a few of my 7mm STW cartridges through his 300 RUM. They just fireformed to the chamber.

Atkinson,
I'm using Western 7-1/2 rifle primers from the '50s-'60s. I've used these recently in some other 30-06 loads and they worked fine.