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I remember back in the 60's when the AR-15 craze started - "plastic machinegun" is my first news memory of it. The first pic I saw wasn't of Air Force users (though I knew they'd bought it), but rather Army Green Berets in what I now guess was the Central Highlands. Interestingly, the .223 round was touted then as the ultimate in stopping/killing power, with "tumbling bullets" as the cause, much exceeding the capability of the existing M-14/.308. One thing to keep in mind is that while we are interested in the rifles and cartridges because we like them, to the generals they aren't all that important. It isn't that they don't care, it's just that they're thinking "mission," and we're discussing "individual capability." For the mission, artillery or air support, or possibly armor, is the proper answer in many cases, not the infantry squad. We're moving back to close-range urban combat, so maybe we'll see some improved individual weapons now, but we may also see things that aren't rifles - small guided explosives to minimize collateral damage and the resulting bad political press, for instance. Jaywalker | |||
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Heck Bartsche, if you want to split the difference between the 6 and 6.5mm, then I guess we have to go 25 cal! Good round, for military and LONG range, we'd want a load with HIGH BC and SD. Seems like the 25's never caught on in the states as much as they could, not for lack of capability. A heavy barreled 25-06 with some heavy bullets would 'reach out and touch someone' but I really doubt our military will come out with a 25 cal, but I guess there have been stranger things. I have heard they paid 10,000 dollars for a hammer too! Must have been a budget 'oversight' ha | |||
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[, but we may also see things that aren't rifles - small guided explosives to minimize collateral damage and the resulting bad political press, for instance. Jaywalker[/QUOTE] Anything to help out our troops, I am in favor of, regardless of publicity. I want the troops to have the 'least disadvantages' whatever that includes, not to mention, 'marginal stopping power' in current small arms, and giving them something to use with 'a margin of power over the 223' would be a good thing, and save lives on our side. I wonder how many on AR would take a 223 to a fight, when other choices were available? Not to start a war! But, really....most consider them inadequate for anything larger than a coyote. I understand the 'wound 'em and let 4 guys tote them off' philosophy, but that gets more of our guys/gals killed when you don't have that one shot stopping power. | |||
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6.5BR, that philosophy only works when you are fighting someone that is more concerned with saving their wounded than killing our troops. A 250 Remington makes entirely too much sense for our military to consider it. The Pentagon brass keeps trying (IMHO) to figure out a way to fight a war without actually having to fight. Infantry will always have to "go get 'em..." as my grandfather (WWI) told me. Rich DRSS | |||
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Seems like the government has no problem finding ways to tax, and increase tax on the people, to imagine when there was no tax, and to have jumped then from zero to the tax rates we have now. Now THAT would be a battle.....I mean war! They find ways to 'justify' getting their agenda, so yeah, perhaps the priority of government needs to go back to 'FOR the people, BY the people' I am FOR a better rifle cartridge for our troops, voted by yours truly. Everyone say Yay/Nay? | |||
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I said "...AMEN!!...". Personally, I believe in the Neutron Bomb. Drop it, and go in about eight hours later and start 'dozing the bodies into big piles to burn. American casualties" ZERO!! Rich DRSS | |||
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Interesting, you may not be the only person THINKING, as recently I heard one military leader say, 'we are considering ALL options' The money and soldiers we'd save would be enormous, if we could get all innocent civilians out of harms way they might do it, or should do it. TO think of recent past wars and how easily we could have taken care of business. Shame the world we live in has the chaos it does, and we as a nation have to handle it. I do applaud our troops for the sacrifices they make, and the ones that have made it in the past, and especially paid the ultimate price. | |||
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I've always wondered why they didn't go with a 9.3 X 62. Recoils like a 22, but, puts a 285 grain bullet out at around 2200-2400 fps. With solids, that will kill an elephant, with no recoil to speak of. Cartridge dimensions near the same as the 30-06. Problem with 06 is it's loaded WAY to hot, for what's needed. Loaded to under 40k, it would easily do the job, with half the recoil of the high pressure rounds... In this case, the eurotrash had the right idea... S | |||
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Reference a post I made on the other thread going about the 270Winchester (where it is being discussed whether or not the 270Win is fading in popularity); I came across lots of figures and facts on it as well as the 30-06 cartridge. It appears that the 30-06 cartridge is the most popular cartridge in the entire world based on total ammunition and rifle sales. It also appears that the second most popular cartridge in the entire world is the 270Winchester which is the most successful wildcat ever derived from the 30-06. That seems very impressive to me as old as they are! I consider the 30-06 not only a National Treasure but it appears that it also is a World Treasure!! GVA | |||
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It could be done if Bush could only allocate the $100 Billion for the "surge" in Iraq to this project. warrior | |||
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This is a good read about battle cartridges and their development: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/Assault.htm And more reading here: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk He has a conclusion(sp) at the end of the first page. | |||
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I don't think the cartridges/rifles we are using are even as much a problem as a single desert flea. What I see as the problem is the assumption that people can fight either "gentle" or "surgically clean" wars. As I've stated before here, the way that Germany and Japan were defeated, was to make clear to both that if they did not agree to TOTAL, UNCONDITIONAL surrender, the allies would kill not only every single German and Japanese person they encountered, including all men, women AND children, but they would annhialate the entire cultures of those two countries if that is what it took. By making that abundantly clear (Think Nagasaki, Hiroshima, Dresden, Berlin, etc.) the will of both opponents to fight was destroyed. IF we are going to go to war with anyone, we chould decide IN ADVANCE that we will be willing to do exactly that to them. If we are NOT willing to do that, and pay the price in world opinion, etc., then we SHOULD NOT BE IN THAT WAR. Pretty simple solution. Either we should be, or we shouldn't be, at war. If we should, we should use everything at our disposal to destroy the enemy's will to fight. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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Exactamundo! All we've got to do is convince the politicians that's the tact to take. | |||
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Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles .30-06: National Mistake?
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Never expected such a vast and interesting response. Of some surprise is that the .250-3000 didn't even get a mention for a future military cartridge, or did I just miss it? 
roger