The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles Re: .300WinMag proponents hostile toward WSM ???Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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one of us |
I like ALL of the new WSM cartridges. I like ALL of the the new WSSM cartridges too. I also like ALL of the SAUM cartridges. Basically, I like ALL cartridges ever produced! I certainly don't begrudge anyone having their favorites, but why spend all this venom on something just because someone says something that you don't like about it? If we discounted every cartridge that was introduced with a lot of BS hype, we wouldn't have the 270 Win, the 223, the 308, etc.  | ||
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| one of us |
Quote: No, I have no strain guage. My riflesmith had several loads pressure tested due to his involvement in LE arms and ammo. One load tested was with the 190gr Match King with a load of RL22 .6 gr heavier than my charge. Re: reloading manuals published with no pressure barrel data You will find the first several editions from the older companies published with no pressure barrels. Damn, you must be a youngster to have needed that explained to you. | |||
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| one of us |
Quote: I have no feeding problem with my WSM. Since you bring up availabilty we must now be discussing factory ammo. The old WinMag has NO velocity advantage with factory ammo. Thanks for covertly admitting the WSM is the more accurate of the two cartridges. You hid it well within your post, but it was there. WSM shooters intimidated by the WM? For more than 2 years at many long-range shoots it has been exactly the opposite. And WSM fans do not verbally disparage the old WM at every opportunity. It is WSM shooters who must defend our choosing something new. Allen, since we want to compare our individual confidence levels in our rifles and loads and find out if it is warranted, Where do you compete? Perhaps, if it involves any shooting discipline I am interested in, I can enter a match in which you plan to participate. | |||
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one of us |
Ruffhewn, I think you'll find that most (but certainly not all) of the board members compete mostly in the field. I know plenty of board members that burn up the range in off season to practice, but only a couple that enter competitions. If you've got venison in the freezer you win. Hey, that means I won big, I had to go buy a second freezer. And last year I used my 300 Win Mag and 7x57. | |||
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| one of us |
Do you feel the amount of meat in your freezer reflect more on your skills as a hunter or the quality of your rifle?..........DJ | |||
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| one of us |
I guess I don't qualify as I am still shooting the 300 H&H for a good many reasons and I think it is the best of the 300s.... I allow that everyone should make their own choice and who cares what anyone else thinks about it. Not to say that it cannot be discussed, cussed and considered all in good conversation.. Therefore,I don't like the new 300 WSM cartridge as its not in the running powerwise, its a slow poke, a closet 30-06, and I don't like the case design for a hunting cartridge..I think the neck on the 300 Win. is too short for heavy bullets, thus its a poorly designed round...  | |||
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| one of us |
On one hand the 300 H&H is a overly long, antiquated, too slope shouldered, to much bolt thrust, having to work the bolt so far back that you'll poke your eye out if you work the bolt from your shoulder, 300 weatherby UN-improved, glorified 30-06 factory rounded, obsolete hard to find brass for round. On the other hand it is the most classic of all the 300s, feeds the smoothest, can be loaded to easily exceed 300win/300wsm velocities, and probably has had the most beautiful rifles made for it. Take your pick........DJ | |||
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| one of us |
Speaking of bolt thrust , that is one large dis-advantage to the WSM case that I have never seen it's fans address , since with the large case head size it will way out do any of the other rounds mentioned here in the bolt thrust department . Like Ray , I could care less what someone else might shoot. Personally , if I want a 300 magnum , I would want a case with magnum sized capacity . If I want a medium powered 30 caliber , I would take the old 06 and avoid all the possilble feeding , magazine capacity , brass expense , and bolt thrust issues....... | |||
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one of us |
Ha, its funny you should mention anything about bolt trust. Short Mags bolt a good bit better than any standard magnum cartridge. Sorry, you cant go anywhere with that one. Reloader | |||
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| one of us |
An overview is that there has been a great demand for 30 caliber magnum cartridges. The most popular has been the 300 WM as Weatherby played the propriety game just like Apple computer did. We all waited for the Winchester 300 Magnum to come out. They had already issued the 458, 264 and 338 and it was assumed that a 300 mag on that case would fit in just right. Then Norma beat Winchester to the punch with the 308 Norma Mag and Winchester shoe horned the longer bodied 300 WM into it's standard action. Enter the WSM's which are ok but still not ideal. They solve some problems but overloading factory rounds or handloads does not seem a good way to live just to reach a particular velocity. Gaining headspace control and loading to the max. is a dubious tradeoff. There is still an opening for a better sized cartrige. To me the length of the bolt is not all that a big deal. One can work a 300 Weatherby or 300 WSM bolt and it's only a half of an inch for cripes sakes. Perhaps a good choice is really the 300 Rum today? Somehow I still want a 30 Newton or a 300 Dakota however over the counter. When your looking at really long ranges why not have all that rifles can do? The 300 Rum comes close to this with few takebacks except the kick and noise. | |||
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| one of us |
The Problem w/ the Ultra mags is that you can only burn so much powder effectively. W/ some of the ideal powders in the Ultra Mag, you actually lose velocity w/ more powder. Don't get me wrong, the Ultra Mag will Burn the little mags (Except the 300 Weatherby in factory ammo) but, The case is so large it is uneffective in some situations. There is an optimal powder burn in several of the loads for the UM. Reloader | |||
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| one of us |
And that is why you stay away from those situations as any cartridges. | |||
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| one of us |
Quote: Reloader , I can't say I quite understand your statement . Maybe there is a typo ? The bigger the area of the cartridge head , the more bolt (case head) thrust you are going to have . This is simple physics. The WSM and the RUM s are both going to deliver more bolt thrust than skinnyer cases with a given chamber pressure . The even fatter cases like the Rigby or .378 Weatherby will have even greater bolt thrust......... | |||
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| one of us |
If someone had brought out the WSM case in a 06 length version , they could have had an advertising field day bragging on beating the 300 Winchester and equalling the 300 Weatherby in a standard length action , and they wouldn't have to lie about it . Then every one and their dog was already building the proper 06 length action to take a series of 3.3 inch COL rimless magnums based on the .404 case.........I still think such a series of cartridges could succeed...........the WSM s are a little short on capacity and the RUM s hold a bit more powder than many people really need or want ........ | |||
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| one of us |
Your right SD. Jeffesso brought this up the other day and it's come up before. I think this is a a situation that many of us here know more about cartridges and rifles than the people who make them! | |||
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| one of us |
"Bolt Thrust" is sometimes also referred to as "Back Thrust" or "Breech Pressure". An approximation can be found by multiplying the area of the cartridge head, in square inches, times the chamber pressure in lbs per square inch. Any of the .532 bolt head magnums loaded to the same pressure will have roughly the same Breech Pressure. However there are other important factors that can signifigantly change the approximation. The condition of the chamber and the shape of the cartridge are very important. A highly polished chamber won't hold a cartridge as firmly against the chamber walls as a slightly roughened one and allow the brass to push harder against the bolt face. You can sometimes fix a sticky bolt lift with normal pressure rounds by slightly roughening up the chamber. Less Sloped cartridges hold the walls of the chamber less firmly than a more highly sloped one. I was mainly joking about the 300 H&H and Bolt thrust since it's not really a problem. But its sloped sides will push the bolt harder than the same performance in a less sloped round all other factors being equal.........DJ | |||
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| one of us |
Quote: I get the impression that you believe a "bolt thrust" is a bad thing. Rough chambers can cause more case head stretching. The lugs on your rifle are designed to take thrust, and keeping the chamber rough will take less than 5% of the thrust off the lugs. Hardly a "signifigantly change" for something that is not a problem. | |||
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| one of us |
gunslinger, Since you brought physics into the equation, you might not want to forget about the very short WSM cart. and how there is not near as much contact area on the length of the brass. Some People Just NEVER Give Up! Reloader | |||
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Quote: No , I don't give up easily (grin) , I may yet get thru to you Reloader . You do realize , if the length of the cartridge had any bearing on bolt thrust , a shorter cartridge would have MORE thrust , due to the factor you mention ? Less contact area would mean less friction between brass and chamber and MORE bolt thrust. I believe as a practical matter , case length has little bearing on bolt thrust . | |||
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| one of us |
I have both a 270WSM and a 300WSM and enjoy them both. Let me state up front that I do not reload nor am I a ballistics guru. In like manner, I have also shot the 270 and 300wm. I simply like shooting the WSM's more. I am not sure that one is better than the other as I personlly don't "see or feel" the benefit of the short action. It seems to me one of the biggest disadvantages of the WSM's has been the limited availability of factory ammo (a non-issue to many of you I realize). But with Federals intoduction of a variety of ammo for both this year, that issue appears mute. Regardless, I am very pleased with both WSM's and their performance. | |||
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| one of us |
Apparently you have diff. opinions on "Bolt Thrust" than the rest of us. Come on, face it, There is no way, no how that a 300 win mag is going to have a better bolt than a 300 WSM (PERIOD). Face it, IT IS A SHORT ACTION RIFLE!!!! Reloader | |||
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| one of us |
Isn't this the same discussion about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? The Neo-modernists are buying the WSM stuff (generality). The guys that have been out their a while, hunting for 25 -50 years are buying (or sticking with) the stuff that has been around. A great deal of the foolishness here (and fun) is all theoretical physics, but almost meaningless in reality. The WSM (short column/headspace) are THEORETICALLY more accurate. With handloads in equal barrel lengths, the orginal "short magnums" (.300 Win., et al) will beat the WSM by 100 FPS (or slightly more). The difference between the two in power & trajectory is unnoticable at any range on game. AND unless you can afford to have Kenny Jarret or Al Miller build you one of their super accurate rifles, AND, unless you are a benchrest handloader and shooter, AND unless you fire them side by side on a perfectly windless day, w/ no mirage, or changes in light variation, NO ONE WILL BE ABLE TO DISTINGUISH A DIFFERENCE IN ACCURACY EXCEPT GOD! Still, if we want to discuss such inane things as is the nature of all of us rifle loonies, Hey, whatever blows your skirt up! | |||
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| one of us |
Quote: Though I have great respect for those at www.longrangehunting.com and so many 1000 yd competitors I am not willing to consider them gods nor do I wish anyone anywhere to consider me one, but I can distinguish an accuracy difference in favor of the WSM as can others with the requisite skill and experience. Just because it is beyond your abilities does not indicate it is anywhere near impossible. | |||
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| one of us |
Ruff, Go back and read the post again, you missed it entirely. I spoke of taking game and the ranges at which game are shot (usually much less that 400 yrds). Perhaps you have the ability to afford a rifle that will make the distinction (I don't). I have an aquaintence who has a Jarret .300 Win. a bit under 8 lbs w/ a scope. It shoots EVERYTHING 1MOA 5 shot groups. Most loads, however, are around .5 MOA. I'd like to see the WSM in a hunting rifle that will beat this by a noticable amout, but would be even more amazed to see where it would make a difference in the field. Most of us hunt w/ Rem, Win, Sako, etc. Most of us work up handloads that will hold 1MOA or so. I have have used 7mm Rem. (My favorite), .300 Win, .338-300 win, .257 Imp. 6.5x55, .270 Win., 8x57. 30-06. In my 32 years of hunting in Canada(living 7 years in B.C.), CA, ID, NM, NV, CO.- not one moose, elk, caribou, bear, deer or sheep every failed to die because of the THEORETICAL infintesimal greater accuracy of the WSM cartridges. If you like them, more power to you. But they are, as has been said, a soloution to a non-existent problem. They are the endless discussion of forums, hunting camps, gun-writers, and wherever elese gun loonies are found. But they are nothing more. | |||
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| <allen day> |
Great points! AD | ||
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| one of us |
"a soloution to a non-existent problem", Yes, as 90% of all cartridges are. I don't think it is offered as a solution as you guys say. I think it is offered as another alternative for our shooting pleasures. I can't find any marketing hype, explaining allens' or your's "solution" claim. | |||
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one of us |
I certainly agree with the original post. There are plenty of 300 mags to choose from so take your pick and leave the rest (for next time ). I doubt you could go wrong with any of them. If recoil bothers you then get an /06.I have had the 300 win mag in the past and think it is a great round. Now I have a 300 WSM and a 300 Ultra. Its all good . | |||
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| one of us |
Quote: ------------------------------------------------------------ There is and was marketing "hype" on the WSM's. Claims were made for greater accuracy and equal or superior velocity to "standard" cartridges in shorter lighter rifles. The potential for greater accuracy is there as the headspace control is much easier with rimless cartridges that have adequate shoulders. As far as the velocity goes the WSM's are smaller than some other magnums so that is hype that they will have the same or similar veocities. If for some reason the WSM's would take higher pressures than other cartridges then it might be true but that does not seem to be working out so far. Lot's of cartridges come and go. Let's enjoy them and not get all worked up over what someone else has. Keep in mind that everything can be improved. | |||
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one of us |
Too bad the internet wasn't around in 1963. If so, I would imagine you would have very similar arguments on the 300 H&H vs the 300 Win Mag. I don't really give a rat's @ss what you shoot, as long as you can hit what you aim at!  | |||
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savage, yea, all thats out there as was for the 300win mag and other marketing. I enjoy reading 1960s american rifleman where they were hyping up how a hunter would be more deadly with a 300win. But still don't see anything about a "solution" as these fellas keep saying. | |||
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| one of us |
There really is no such thing as a 300 WSM or a 300 Win Mag, as we are using it in this forum. The names are BRANDS and subject to all the controversy of BRANDS. Both are .308 caliber, and both are Winchesters. One holds 83.6 grs of water witha 180 gr bullet, and the other 76. Both easily achieve excellent accuracy with a wide variety of powders....many of which are the same. Now, one is shorter and fatter than the other, so it has less internal surface area and is a tiny bit more efficient than the other. This efficiency moves them closer together, so the differences are even less in the field and on the range. End of story... | |||
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| one of us |
You forgot about the Short action lovers? Reloader | |||
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| new member |
My 1966 700 BDL in 300WM was my 1st rifle.It received my version of free floating and a trigger job: sanding till the business card could be slipped around the bbl,and turning that wonderful weight of pull screw to 2.5 lbs.The reloading manuals of the day went 72.5/4350 for 3180fps with 180's.... 3 holes touching @ 100 yds. Reloading became boring when plain jane Rem 180 Factory Corelocks did the same 3 holes,same point of impact. Zero remains the same every year...but I still fire that one 3 shot group before opening day because I still don't believe that this rifle walks on water... silly me. I've still have "never to be used vintage" 130's, 180 BT and NP's, 200's,etc. Why bother ? ,that case of Rem Factory will last another 50 years! But I have preferred 14"Contenders for the last 20 years,saving my beloved BDL for the 350 yd+ cornfields. ( I never leave home without both!) Now I see the best of both worlds:a Striker in 300 WSM ...can't resist it! and now I can use up all those vintage heads! | |||
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