I got this after hearing about the 9.3x62 article. It was OK, not great. The 35 Whelen article, on the other hand, was a pathnetic rehash of old information and weak load data, without a trace of any real understanding of the medium bore concept. The author did not mention the Federal Trophy Bonded load, and only tried one 250 grain bullet. Totally lame.

Is it just me or is this magazine going to hell like G&A or Shooting Times?

Ditto! Both the Rifle and Handloader have gone to the dogs. I know several writers who publish in other magazines and when I ask them why they don't write for either Rifle or Handloader I get a generic answer that is basically "bad experiences". They need an infusion of new blood as I am getting a bit weary of John Barness writing the same two or three articles over and over again.

I think it's been a good year since I've purchased a Handloader. It used to be my favorite magazene, but as of late, there hasn't been enough decent articles, or even an article to make it worth purchasing. I do enjoy Ross Seyfrieds articles on some of the older British rounds and guns, but I'm not going to buy the mag for one article.

My wife just renewed my subscription for my birthday- after I had cancelled it!! The only thing worth reading in either of them any more is Ross' stuff. Seems they just rehash the same stuff over and over. More and more advertisements too I think!! I will not be renewing again.

Handloader and Rifle have gone strait down hill since they went after the supermarket crowd. Nothing wrong with articals for new people, but there are only so many ways to clean 30-06.

Rifle, Handloader, the ("new") American Rifleman, and Rifle Shooter are the "best of what's left", and yes, they have all gotten better and, yes, they have deteriorated - all at the same time! Mostly, they all suffer from the age-old gun magazine curse of trying to make too many people happy........

There is room for another sophisticated, high-grade magazine of two with an old-style format....

AD

Is there a "good" gun rag out there? I get the Rifleman because I am a lifer in the NRA as I suspect most of you are. The only other gun/hunting magizne I subscribe to is the Varmint Hunter and don't plan to renew when it runs out next year. I find myself digging out OutDoor Life from the 50s & 60s. Same goes for 1960 Shooting Times & Guns & Ammo. Only trouble with reliving the past is you are stuck reading about the 22Jet or how much J.O'C. hated the 264Win. with a 26in. barrel, etc, etc., etc. Pete--living in the past.

Try http://www.precisionshooting.com/ might be more than you want, not a beginner magazine anway.

I agree the 9.3x62 article is about par for its type. Al Miller, Clair Reese and the rest... where do they find these guys? I doubt any of them have had an original thought or article for years. The reality is however, there's really only so much that can be said that's new and most everything that can be said has been said. After all, rifles, shooting, cartridges, et.al., are a fairly limiting subject... best to put the magazines down and get out on the hill!

Regardless, these types of forums offer better information with deeper and wider experience than any of the rags.

The only reason I buy Handloader or Rifle is to read John Barsness's stuff... he's got a keen mind and is forever trying to see something in a new light. I can't say I always agree with him, but his idea's are based on more than hot-air.

BA

Hi

I'm Affraid your all damn right. Articles are like leftovers heat them up and add some more spices

I used to like Rifleshooter, but it has turned 100% CRAP. Rifle mag and Handloader used to be long reading magazines. Today there seems to be a competition to write the worst gunrag. I don't understand how they even can pay any money to the writers for some of their articles.

Which do the rest of you read ?

Cheers
JOHAN

Allen day, I agree with you. But where will we find Phil Sharpe, Harvey Donaldson, Elmer Keith, Jack O'Connor, Warren Page, Pete Brown, Townsend Whelen, and Julian Hatcher?? Or ANYONE who knows as much as these guys knew?

Redbeard,
I do barrow Precision Shooting from a friend but alot of it is into benchrest or match shooting.
First of all I am a coyote caller, then a biggame hunter and gunnut/handloader. Actually I get more fun out of accuratereloading and huntamerica then any magazine.

Hey Pete

You the guy that shot the Big elk there last year?

it was a dandy,
I was hunting 70 mile south of Lewiston at the same time.Passed some small ones,looking for Mr Big.

Johan, the best gun journalism right now is online. Forums like this one beat the hell out of print because people like us write, publish, edit and censor them, and the advertisers can't afford to bribe us all. We have tons of real world experience, and the net lets us interact rather than being stuck on the losing end of print journalism's transmit-only mode. Perhaps most important, money does not enter the equation. We're here in defiance of our financial obligations, not because of them.

So why should we pay to read a Guns & Ammo infomercial written by a de facto employee of the US gun industry's public relations machine? Instead, we can have a detailed question answered by a dozen or more people from all over the world who paid their own money to learn the answer for themselves. Also, we get that answer in 72 hours or less instead of having to wait months for a reply, and we get to participate in the process of figuring it out.

The best gunwriting ever was in The American Rifleman before the late 1970's. Older G&A and Shooting Times articles are OK, but the rot that now infects them began to creep in when Keith, Skelton and Jordan left the game. Jack O'Connor and Jeff Cooper are the two best writers ever to ply the trade, but O'Connor opened the door for the modern gunwhore when he accepted Outdoor Life's offer to hunt and write about it for money.

So there it is--print journalism is dead, and you and I work for the best gun rag around.

Okie John.

To me, the best remaining great gunwriters are John Barsness, Jim Carmichel, and Ross Seyfried. I read all of their stuff without fail.

AD

Okie make sense. Much sense. Print media is in direct competition with the online world, and its not looking good for glossy paper. I've dumped about 4 other hobby magazines in favor of the online forum in the last 2-3 years and won't be picking them up again. The daily content is far more valuable and timely than any deadline generated scrabble, and it does seem as if it comes right from the real world, not out of a editing meeting.

It is however, a bit hard to peruse the net when planted firmly on the crapper, so perhaps there is still a niche to be filled by the periodical.

Rick L.

Rick, you just need to put in a phoneline and buy a laptop to sit "at the ready" on the back of the toilet or in a basket at the side of the pot!

[ 07-30-2002, 03:26: Message edited by: Brad ]

I've sent a few E-mails to these magazines over the last couple of years and asked when they were going to do a feature article on the 243 Winchester. I told them it was over 20 years ago, yea 20 years, since they did the last one. I asked them why they were doing so many reviews on calibers that were not very popular and omitting several that were. Since they are apparently disregarding their readers requests, I don't think that I'm going to renew either magazine. BEN

Six Bits,
I wish it was me. Starting last Oct. 31 I was in and out of the hospt. fighting colon cancer. Now only 5 more weeks chemo, doc. says I'am doing fine and will live to pay all the bills .
All I got last fall was 4 coyotes. This year will be different. Call em in close---Pete

Rick, just go wireless, makes those throne visits much more interesting. LOL - Dan

I also believe all of the gun related writing has gone down hill. I prefer to subscribe to the more obscure magazines such as Accurate Rifle (which is starting to suck), Precision Shooting, and Varmint Hunter. Also, I am currently reading Wayne Van Zwoll new book, Accurate Rifle Shooting, or something like that. I feel like he ripped me off for $20. The book so far (page ~210 out of ~330) has yet to discuss how to accurately shoot a rifle. What a waste of time and money. I am not going to give up on it yet, I will finish it, but so far DON"T BUY THIS BOOK.

Jim

I still get Rifle and Handloader, but I mostly keep them on to read Ross S. and the ads (great for finding who does what). The magazines are getting thinner too.

I now subscribe to African Hunter, Man/Magnum and Harald's Hatari Times -- too bad it is only quarterly. (I also write for AH; I know all the staff there and I am not impartial!)

With that said, Saeed's online magazine is a great one. More importantly, it is international in scope and appeal.

Jeff Cooper is still writing a monthly column that finds its way onto the internet, although it is not "published" per se. Jeff calls a spade a f***ing shovel.

jim dodd

What's (where's) Saeed's online magazine? Can anyone turn me on to other online rifle/reloading zines? Thanks all.

You want to feel really bad go to one of the 60s or older American Rifleman and compare it to todays version. Not unlike the rest of them!
The days of consistently good articles in ANY of the Gunzines is long gone.
Luckily there are some really great articles in the "E-magazine" world, but that will not keep the paper versions afloat and "we NEED" them to survive strange as it sounds!
LouisB
Just an opinion of course!

the only magz I get is the american rifleman.
afew years ago i gave up on handloader and a short time later gave up on the rifle magz as well
I cant stand shooting time or guns and ammo.
It was the same thing in every magz. Isaved them for a while. you could look at an article in september 1976 and in november read the same article with a diffrent twist.
Just gave up on them all togeather.

Cacarno91....don't get me wrong. I think Barness is a good writer who is getting overexposed. The things he writes about make a lot of sense but there isn't much variety.

I had a lot of hope for Precison Shooting's little brother The Accurate Rifle but it really seems to be struggling trying to find it's niche but I think it still has some potential but it needs a strong editor who can devote some time and effort finding good writers with something to say.

The one writer who I almost always enjoy reading is Mic McPherson...writes for Precision Shooting and Varmint Hunter and a host of other magazines. His insights on reloading etc and rifle performance are both stimulating and informative.

DB Bill,

I agree, Accurate Rifle has so much potential, but some of the articles are way out in left field, that have nothing to do with what the magazine should be about. McPherson's articles are great. He goes into great detail and explains everything well.

Jim

As long as we're on the subject of magzines, I haven't seen a Guns or American Handgunner since June. Are they still in business? - Dan

I knew Rifle/Handloader was in trouble when they accepted some "Viagra" ads or something like that in one of the issues.

I really miss Finn Aagard's articles and enjoy the few that Phil Shoemaker writes.

Where can I get some info on the Magnum magazine?

I think Okie John had it about right.

In addition, most of us simply know a lot more than we did twenty years ago. I hope so, anyway! So what are we going to read that we haven't already read. Even Precision Shooting has or recently had a lot of people bitching about why it doesn't have the kind of articles it had years ago. The answer is the same - they already printed those articles.

The .35 Whelen article in question was written by Stan Trzoniec. Mr T is an excellent photographer - in one article he mentioned being a commercial photog by trade, and I can easily believe that. He is, however, lacking in creativity in his load efforts and his writing. His .35 Whelen article was about worthless.

However, Hanloader & Rifle are still the best of the newsstand-style magazines. Seyfried is a most interesting writer, and picks unusual and interesting topics. Barsness is knowledgable and usually interesting. Brian Pearce is enthusiastic and fresh. Al Miller is enjoyably crusty and to the point. That he is a .358 bore rifle fan doesn't hurt, either.

If Wolfe ever gets into the already over populated handgun 'zine biz, stealing John Taffin and Massad Ayoob would make my day.

BigIron

I want to see these guys wringing stuff out...lots of range time, tables, ballistics/accuracy/load info..etc. That is what they get paid for right..RIFLE magazine needs to tell people to write in-depth, evaluations of Rifles and cartridges...I hate the first 2-3 paragraphs in every article telling me when and How the .DFG remchester was developed and why...I don't care, I can read that in my reloading manuals..just work up a lot of loads with a lot of bullets and tell me everything..

I also hate the I got a Rifle in ... and three boxes of factory loads and killed a nice 6X6 elk...end of story! How amazing a 160gr Partition starting at 3,000fps will kill an elk...thanks for passing that along..but by the way is the rifle worth a flip and how about something more than your excuse to go hunting on Noslers dime..

Mike

gents,
I was recently given a quantity of American Rifleman mags from the fifties through today,those printed today are sorely lacking inspiration. Compared to those g&a and s.t. from the 80's though I would say todays are making a comeback of sorts. All those 9mm vs 45 bs...are revolvers dead ? please...Online I feel that this forum and shooters are instantly and by far the most helpful. My favorite writers from the past ? Skeeter,Bob Milek,,,,today John Taffin. Another helpful place I recommend is www.realguns.com
good no nonsense ,common man,tinker stuff.
45nut

I was at the range here in Tucson a few weeks ago and seated about two benches away was the good Mr. Scovill. I introduced myself, and said i'd like to discuss the possibility of doing an article in rebuttal to one that Rom Spomer wrote, as that idiot had it all wrong. Scovill looked right through me as if I was not even there and turned away. He couldn't even bother to acknowledge my presence. My wife was standing there as all this happened and she is a woman who does not swear ever. I mean like never never ever. I won't repeat what she said, but she sure covered his ancestory all the way back to the protozoa.
I firmly believe that Handloader and Rifle went down the crapper when Scovill took over from Al Miller. I especially enjoy Miller's work with the .35 Whelen and cast bullets. Barsness is still pretty good, and while I don't agree with Spomer, I can still enjoy his writings. Van Zwoll? Mixed feelings. Sometimes he's good, other times, well better leave that unsaid.
I seriously wonder if a strong letter writing campaign to the magaziones wouldn't be of some benefit, especially if we send copies to their advertisers as well saying if the gun rag doesn't straighten out, we will NOT buy the product in question? No readers? No Magazine. No buyers of products? No advertisers to keep the rag afloat. Fact is, as much as Handloader and Rifle charge for their ads, they should give us the magazines for free. I know one of tha people that has ads in Handloader and Rifle. It's a tiny one that runs him $500 a month. No wonder his gunsmithing prices are so high.
Considering how the magazines have gone downhill, old Dave Wolfe must be spinning in his grave.
Paul B.

As the cover of Handloader/Rifle magazines get more glossy, the quality of the content goes down.
In no time you will be seeing Rifle Magazine brought to you by "Shooting Guns & Ammo Times and all our sponsors that paid for the editorial content"
Too Bad

ZM

Wolfe Publications isn't interested in any new writers or articles, or so they say. They clain to have a backlog of articles. They said the same thing seven years ago! I've tried to get a review of some of my stuff, but keep getting told that they have a big backlog of material already. It's funny, but I'm good enough to work for "Outdoor Life", but not good to write for Wolfe!

AD

How long has it been since any of these magazine hacks got something from the factory that wasn't "just the greatest" thing to ever be offered to the shootingand hunting fraternity? No matter how hair brained the idea, poorly designed, and crudely made their response is always the same, "this was and early production piece and I have been ASSURED that these problems will be taken care of before before products are shipped". YEA RIGHT!!!! I have been reading gun magazines for 45 years and those still extant have all gone down hill, I read for information, and as I certainly don't know it all (yet), how is it possible that they have run out of ideas for articles. My biggest complaint is the lack of gunsmithing articles and I do not mean another "how to mount your scope" piece, if you can't do that, you should have bought your rifle from a real gunshop instead of Walmart.

Listen, folks. Most gun cranks know more about guns, bullets, powders, shooting, and hunting than most of the hacks writing for magazines.
There are only a handful who can teach us anything, and even fewer who can make us enjoy learning.

I am seriously considering letting my subscription to RIFLE and HANDLOADER lapse; I dumped ST, G&A, OL, F&S, etc. lapse years ago when all the articles were by the same writers and about the same subjects.

They've decided to increase circulation by appealing to the uninformed masses rather than their core audience. Pity.

George

Here is the response of "Don" at Wolfe Publishing to the comments on this thread:

quote:

---

Sorry you are disappointed.

We never look at the chat rooms to get a feel for our magazines. I can go to
one and hear nothing but great reviews and then another and nothing but bad
reviews and both chat rooms are talking about the same magazine.

One person hates John Barsness another thinks he's the best.

We look at mail not email. Most get upset after drinking a few beers and
spout off something. When someone takes the time to write an intelligent
letter, then we know they are serious and look to what they have to say.
Currently mail is 80 20 in favor of the magazines. We are striving to bring
up the 20 percent.

Thanks,
Don

---

Well, we know they don't care about chat rooms; we know they don't care about e-mail. Maybe we should write them a letter, and see if they care about our business!

George