Ladies & Gents: My wife managed to surprise me for the first time in 23 years with a Christmas present that I could really use!. The rifle appears to be a model 70 "Alaskan" in 338 from the Custom Shop. Sadly, there is no provenance with the rifle. I have taken the time to painstakingly dissect the rifle from stem-to stern using Roger Rule's Book, "The Rifleman's Rifle" to verify it's authenticity. A friend of mine who also posts here and was a contibutor to the above book, seems to think it's an authentic CS piece and suggested I contact the Buffalo Bill Museum in Cody and I've done so.

In the meantime, do any of you learned folks out there have any other ideas as to where I can further research this rifle. I have pictures available, but I am unable to post them direct from home at the moment. If any of you are interested and can post them, I can send them to you to post. Thanks, jorge

Jorge,

E-mail them to me; I'll post them for you.

George

Here you go, Jorge!






George

Jorge,

Let us have a photo of the barrel lettering in close up. That will tell the tale. The stock work looks a bit iffy in regard to factory work. IMHO

Scrollcutter: The stock is identical to one published in Rule's book, I think on page 72. The checkering, style, etc all match. The barrel and receiver have Winchester proof marks. The only difference is that the name "winchester" does not appear on the barrel, but there again there is precedence according to Rule's book in that some CS orders, the customers elected "slick" barrels except for the proof marks which are genuine Winchester. jorge

jorge,

That is one heck of a nice Christmas present.

Please keep us posted as you learn more about it.

Regards,
Dave

That is one nice rifle - and I hope you reward that wife of yours with a trip to Hawaii. - maybe I could have her talk to mine about gift ideas

Where did she find this

Enjoy!

jorge,

The stock comb at the nose looks like a Biesen style, also the checkering patern. Almost looks similar to a Jack O'Connor rifle in one of his books ?? At the G&H website there are a couple of Biesen masterpieces listed, check out his style.

Fine lookin rifle, much better than a load of sox and ties !

Bob

Jorge,
I'm not saying that your rifle isn't real, I'm just saying it's iffy. I can't tell from the photos, but it looks like the caliber is hand stamped. By the way, I can stamp all the proof marks you want.

I hope it is real and good luck.

Jorge,

Wouldn't USRAC's Custom Shop have the records?

George

Scrollcutter: you are right about the caliber stamp. Hey, I'm not the least bit offended! If you know what I mean, I HAVE to like this rifle no matter what! but according to the Winchester book, the Custom shop did that too. The checkering is IDENTICAL to one in the book. George, as far as the Custom Shop, they didn't keep the records, they sent them to the Buffalo Bill Museum. I'm trying to get that stuff now. Thanks for all the inputs guys whatever they might be! jorge

I live in Cody, where the Buffalo Bill Museum is located. If I can help, let me know.

Johnny: I might just take you up on that! What I have been able to find out is that when Olin sold Winchester, all the records were given to the museum, including the Custom Shop's. I have an email into them, but so far no response. I'll keep all of you posted on what I come up with once they respond. Thanks again. Oh yeah, the gun shoots great. So far 1" groups with 250gr Hornadysand H-4831 powder. jorge

If I'm not mistaken all of the Mod. 70 records along with the later lever and pump action records are gone. Fire I think.

Jorge: Contact George Madis, a foremost authority on Winchesters:

www.georgemadis.com

George Madis passed away back in December of '03.

I have owned a couple dozen Pre-64 Mod. 70s in the past 36 yrs. including 5 Alaskans in .338 and 3 in .375, I have 4 original .338s and 1 .375 now. I would "kill" for that rifle...beautiful, just gorgeous!

I am a hunter-shooter so although many of my current O.M. 70s are minty, they get shot. I immediately thought of Biesen when I first saw the pictures of this as his stock style at that time is reflected in this rifle; given O'Connor's influence at Winchester, this is hardly surprising. I once had a Biesen .270 in the JOC style, wish I'd kept it....

I share your good fortune in wives, mine has bought me several fine guns, including my Dakota. Your rifle is absolutely one of the most desirable pieces imaginable, I wish you many fine hunts with it.Every true hunter-gunnut should have one Pre-64, especially an "Alaskan" in .338, my favourite rifle in 40 yrs. of hunting.

Wow, thanks for all the inputs. I was sorry to hear about Madis' passing. Does anybody know if anybody is going to continue in his stead? It sounds like he might have been able to help. Regarding the stock work on my rifle, there are a couple in the Rule book that approximate mine. In one example, the checkering is identical to mine. This is taking on the aspects of a fun project, but like I told you guys, regardless of the outcome I HAVE to love the gun, if you know what I mean! jorge

"George Madis passed away December 2003."

Gosh, wasn't aware of that, sorry to hear. Family needs to shut down his website. Maybe Dave Riffle or Schumman's Gun Shop could help, they advertise lots of pre-64 M-70s in Gun List.

Jorge, that is a beautiful rifle. You must have been a good boy this last year, lol.

When I saw the photos, I immediately thought of Biesen. There is something very distinctive about the shape of the nose on one of their stocks.

Hope you find out what you are looking for. It is a beauty.

An oldtimer at our club in CT worked at Winchester for his lifetime as a gunsmith/machinest. He was there thru the "64" era. They were told to put any parts together that were there to sell a gun. Also "goverment" work and custom work was done all of the time.

So if there is a picture of anything like it in Rules book then it's a Winchester to me.

There are a number of newer Winchesters here in CT with checkering patterns like that. Some are on XTR's even.

Just enjoy your custom shop Winchester. They are pure Americana.

Somebody clarify which page in Rule's book. I can't find it. I also have not seen a Winchester stock whose top line did not drop at the rear of the receiver ring. The grinding or milling of the barrel near the rear sight is unusual, as well. Interesting rifle.

pg. 254, the middle' checkering is identical towards the front of the rifle but with a different pad . The bottom picture pg. 281 the scalloping around the receiver is the same. Like I said in my original post, I've dissected the rifle from the frnt sight to the butt, under the barrel, receiver markings, proofs, etc and it all matches. BUT I'CAN'T BE 100%. Boys, no matter what, if my wife says it is, well, you know the rest. SHoots great too! jorge

Pachmayr perhaps?

There are some similarities between this rifle and a Biesen M70 on Champlin's site . Click on "Gun Vault" and do a speed search for "Bolt Rifles". It's the first one listed.

Glen 71: it certainly has the "Biesen Touch" I must admit. I put in a call to George Caswell at Champlin but he's on the road to Reno to SCI. Guess I'll see him there and take him a bunch of pictures. This research stuff is more fun that I thought! jorge

Well, he's probably hauling a trailer with all his wares! I'll drop by his booth with pics and see what happens. jorge

Here's the reply from the Buffalo Bill Museum:
Hello,
Yes, we can help. We do have a few Model 70 records in our Winchester Custom Shop papers, and these can be made available for your inspection. Make an appointment with us and we will work with you to set this up.

Nathan E. Bender, Housel Curator
McCracken Research Library
Buffalo Bill Historical Center
720 Sheridan Avenue
Cody, WY 82414

nathanb@bbhc.org www.bbhc.org



Johnnyappleseed: Would you be willing to stop by there and take a look? I'll pay for all costs of course. Let me know! jorge

It's been a while since I've looked at Rules book and really tried to study a M70 but I see something in the pictures that appears wrong. If you look at the rear of the bolt there is a flat spot under the safety. I believe that they only had this until around 1951 and I believe that the .338 came out later than 1951. I may be wrong, can someone comment? Then again if it was from there custom shop they may have had an old bolt that they put on instead of the newer one. Who knows? I LOVE the way the rear sight and barrel boss are done! I saw one like that in a Leupold catalog once and think it really looks classy

Your'e sort of right. The receiver was manufactured in 1956 but the 338 did not come out till 59. In Rule's book, there's a whole page explaining this. the 338 is based on the parent 458 Win Mag case. When the 458 came out, they expected to sell more than they did. When the 338 came out, they had a bunch of 458 actions unused so they made them into 338s. If you look underneath the action near the lug, the numbers "458" are stamped. Accordingly, most if not all 338s have the 458 stamp underneath. But the bolt/action is a correct match. jorge

You're right, I don't know where I got the 1951 date from. My mistake.