How many rounds can I expect of accurate barrel life of a Krieger SS barrel in 338 Win Mag caliber? Kriger says under FAQ on their webpage that there is no difference in longevity between their CrMo and Stainless steel barrels - both last the same.. But how long barrellife can I expect? Experiences?
Thanks..

Ulrik

As a general rule a Krieger is going to last longer than most. It really isn't just Krieger, but any quality made "cut" rifled barrel is going to out last the mass produced button or hammer forged barrels. That being said there are outside infuences which will cut down a barrels longevity, mainy how hot the loads and how fast you shoot them. Heating up the throat cuts down the life.

I do not think you will wear a 338 Win Mag Krieger barrel on a hunting rifle in a couple of lifetimes as far as hunting rifle accuracy is concerned, and I am not talking about pie plate accuracy, I mean sub MOA groups out to 300 yards.

A target rifle is another story as somewhere between 1,000 and 2,500 rds the groups will start to open up @ 600 yards or so. The wide gap between 1,000 and 2,000 rds is the 338 is a big case and if loaded hot it is going to burn the throat more and a target rifle is going to get hot somewhere in a match.

ETA: I put an extra zero in those values! Heck I wish my 223 would last 10,000 rds!!

Figure out how many rounds a year you will fire out of the rifle. Subtract your current age from 75. Multiply the round per year times the years left until 75. I'd be willing to wager that you will have a lot of barrel left in that rifle when you are 75!

How can a cut rifle barrel last longer than another rifled a different way?
Accuracy will start to degrade at about 1000 rounds. You wouldn't notice it on a hunting rifle.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
Figure out how many rounds a year you will fire out of the rifle. Subtract your current age from 75. Multiply the round per year times the years left until 75. I'd be willing to wager that you will have a lot of barrel left in that rifle when you are 75!

Well I am 38 , that means 37 years "left"..
Make it a low 100 rounds pr year (it is a hunting rifles and not a target rifle, but I like shooting all my hunting rifles regularly). That means 3700 rounds. Guess that is a realistic expectation

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
How can a cut rifle barrel last longer than another rifled a different way?
Accuracy will start to degrade at about 1000 rounds. You wouldn't notice it on a hunting rifle.
Butch

I don't know how exactly but I compete and the cut rifled Kriegers outlast the button rifled Wilsons by 1,500-2,500 rds all the time. I think the button rifled barrels are softer for machining and the cut rifled are harder to begin with. This is 223 Rem class cartridges.

I compete and have never heard of anybody using a Wilson barrel. Do you just do club shoots? I expect it has more to do with the steal that Wilson uses and not the rifling.
I don't think you will find serious competitors using Wilson and if you do you are seeing a loser.
Butch

I read the shoot reports each month, and look at component rifle parts being used, scopes, etc.
For barrels, I see Kreieger, Lilja, Hart, Shilen, Brux, Spencer, and Bartlein, but I've never seen a Wilson.

Think he might be talking about high power matches?

I dunno, but it would kinda make sense.

Terry

I doubt you can shoot a 338winmag enought to see any real drop off in accuarcy. The larger bore is more powder friendly.

When talking barrel life let's talk about real barrel life or maybe a better term would be practical barrel life. I would consider NRA Highpower as a better gauge of useable barrel life than benchrest. Wilsons wear out between 1,500 and 3,500 (hot loads wear qicker) and Kriegers usually last around 4,000 -6,000. When worn out I am saying the groups are starting to open up @ 600 yards.

NRA Highpower accuracy is MOA or just under out to 600 yards with a lot of rounds fired. The AR-15 is the platform of choice right now for Service rifle competition. Wilson barrels are the best kept secret in the world. They are relatively inexpensive, finely honed, and accurate. Their downfall is they are a bit soft and not as long lasting as Kriegers. They are as accurate as Douglas and Krieger. 88 shot matches with four strings of 10 shot rapid fire give a good indication of a barrels hunting accuracy life.

Sure you have Lilja, Hart, Krieger and the other big boys for high tech benchrest accuracy with a very short life span. Once the groups open up a couple of thousandths of an inch they are replaced. They are never heated up during use either. That gives you no clue as to the hunting rifle accuracy life of the barrel.

Highpower is more like hunting. More emphasis on the man and not the machine. My friend bore scoped a $60 Wilson stainless .284" blank that I bought on clearance a few years back. He said it was a smooth and finely finished inside as any Hart that he had scoped. Here is a link to Wilson http://wilsonarms.com/

It is my understanding that Button rifled barrels work harden in the rifling process,...so why would they wearout quicker?....also, Id welcome the scientific evidence to show that the hardness and quality of barrel material used in button barrels is softer or lesser than that used for cut barrels.

The buttons for button barrels are made from carbide.
Butch

Wilson used to make Ruger's barrels IIRC.
You do see a lot of them at HP matches.

Rich
Buff Killer

Go to a match that the good equip. is necessary and you won't take a Shaw or Wilson. Alan Warner frequents these forums and knows a little about High Power, ask him if he shoots or chambers Wilson barrels. I realize that the shooter is most important in High Power, but don't think a great shooter would handicap his self with inferior equip. As Duane Weibe says on a custom rifle, why save a $100 when you are spending so much on the rest? How much do you spend in travel and food and other things when competing? How much do you spend on ammo and practice? The barrel savings is false economy.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:
How many rounds can I expect of accurate barrel life of a Krieger SS barrel in 338 Win Mag caliber? Kriger says under FAQ on their webpage that there is no difference in longevity between their CrMo and Stainless steel barrels - both last the same.. But how long barrellife can I expect? Experiences?
Thanks..

Ulrik

During my most active years shooting individual and team competition on a National level with the M14, I was operating a primary rifle, a back-up rifle, and a rattle battle rifle while running through well over 12,000 rounds each year between the three. I used whichever barrels the 2112s were screwing into the receiver for the season to include some of the best barrels available at the time. My experience with such professionally built and professionally maintained rifles was that you'd begin to see a bit of accuracy loss over 1,000 rounds with the throat being eroded and shot out by 4,000 rounds under ideal conditions. Shooting hot loads could quickly burn out the throat cutting the barrel life in half. Poor maintenance where you damage the barrel ID using improper cleaning techniques could reduce barrel life even further.

In the context of a hunting rifle in the hands of a hunter who's field marksmanship is well below that of a hard holding Marine; such hunter would probably never realize the full accuracy potential of a match barrel while hunting to begin with and would probably never realize a loss of barrel accuracy throughout the remainder of their individual hunting lifetime. What such a hunter would probably see is a barrel that does not metal foul and is easy to maintain provided they do not screw up the barrel makers custom lap finish.

Best

quote:

How many rounds can I expect of accurate barrel life of a Krieger SS barrel in 338 Win Mag caliber?

Anyone that thinks a Krieger will last longer than others just has had too much brandy.

It would be a very unusual person than shoots out a .338 Magnum barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Go to a match that the good equip. is necessary and you won't take a Shaw or Wilson. Alan Warner frequents these forums and knows a little about High Power, ask him if he shoots or chambers Wilson barrels. I realize that the shooter is most important in High Power, but don't think a great shooter would handicap his self with inferior equip. As Duane Weibe says on a custom rifle, why save a $100 when you are spending so much on the rest? How much do you spend in travel and food and other things when competing? How much do you spend on ammo and practice? The barrel savings is false economy.
Butch

Now I know there are some shooters in TX, but we have some shooters in PA as well. The range I shoot at is the home range to 5 of the top ten highpower shooters in the country. There are only three barrels ever seen in service rifle there Douglas, Wilson, and Krieger. The National Guard All Guard Rifle Team uses chrome moly Douglas. The all guard armorer traded me one of their barrels (brand new) with matched bolt (both were serialed). My one year old Wilson "out shot" it and I sold it to a friend.

A couple of years ago SSG Julia Watson won at Camp Perry with a brand new stock out of the box Rock River NM with a Wilson barrel. You are not handicapped with a Wilson. A Wilson barrel is not inferior. I made no mention of Shaw or Adams and Bennet junk. Trust me when guys choose Wilson or Krieger they are waying price and service life not accuracy, and the economics of it is nearly a toss up.

I really do not know why Wilson's do not last as long as Kriegers. It could be the steel, it may be shallower rifling. I know somewhere along the line it was said that Wilson barrels are so uniform is because they are softer and more easily machined with less distortion. It is definitely not quality control. Wilson barrels do not foul either; they are very finely finished inside. The main detractor with Douglas barrels in NRA Highpower is they do take a bit of cleaning between matches to get the copper out.

Airegun,
Sounds like you have it figured out in your own mind.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by airgun1:
88 shot matches with four strings of 10 shot rapid fire give a good indication of a barrels hunting accuracy life.

I hate to hijack this thread, but the above statement of fact has got me thinking. Especially being made by another Pennsylvania resident. Remember that PA's game laws prohibit all semi-auto rifles (and pistols). So, how in the wide, wild world of shooting sports do you conclude that rapid firing in shooting matches is indicative of a hunting rifle's useful barrel life? Or is it just another of your sweeping generalities like this one:

quote:

...any quality made "cut" rifled barrel is going to out last the mass produced button or hammer forged barrels.

Hart rifle barrels are button rifled. Every one is made of stainless steel. I wonder if they are lovingly hand crafted or mass produced? And how many per day determines the cutoff between the two? Is one per day the former, but 2 per day the latter?

I looked over Wilson's website. No where do they offer hunting rifle barrels or even AR-15 barrels. Nor do they indicate their method of rifling; cut or button. I wonder why? Perhaps it is general knowledge too trivial to mention.

Said as delicately as possible, I think Wilson's market has been mostly directed towards those of the faith common to Utah. I know that Bullberry did use Wilson barrels exclusively, unless the customer wanted a barrel in a bore that Wilson doesn't make.

I think they do offer rifle barrels, and AR barrels. Last time I looked Wilson barrels are offered by Brownells.

KB

I am not being argumentive. I have been using Wilson barrels for nearly 20 years on bolt guns. That pre dates the internet. Wilson's have always been hard to find. They always have made barrels for the major gunmakers. There use to be a steady source from a guy in the Catskill mountains, but he is an Army Reservist and has spent more time in Afghanistan than the USA in the past 5 or 6 years. Wilson's website does not do them justice. Give them a call. Another link http://www.rockriverarms.com/i...play&category_id=274

As far as heating up the throat goes, I am merely saying that a guy is going to heat his throat more sighting in his gun and practicing than a guy shooting a benchrest match with a Hart barreled gun. I live about 60 miles from the original Hart operation and 50 miles from the "Original 1,000 yd Benchrest Club". Hart makes a fine barrel for sure but they are not known for their longevity. I could show you a gun shop near me that has so many "shot out" Hart barrels around 20" long and approx 1-18" diameter in 22 PPC or 6mm PPC laying on the floor that you could wade in them. Those barrels are really worn out too, the groups opened up .004" for heaven's sake. The last I knew Hart only made heavies, no sporter weight barrels. Now get ready for this, they use the more machineable stainless alloys. You just can not include a discussion of hunting rifle barrel life with a discussion of a Hart barrel's benchrest life because there is nothing to compare it to. I guarantee those Hart barrels lying on the floor have a heck of a lot of years of more than acceptable hunting rifle accuracy.

To be clear mass produced button rifled barrels are Douglas, Shilen, Wilson, Shaw, Adams &Bennett and I am sure others. Typical hammer forged barrels come from the gunmakers Winchester-post 64(RIP), Marlin, Ruger etc. I am not saying they use hammer forged barrels exclusively but they do or did make them for some of their guns.

Cut rifled barrels take a lot longer to make than any button rifled barrel including Hart.

The bottomline is that cut rifled Krieger 338 barrel is going to last a very longtime on a hunting rifle. I know modern manufacturing methods evolve and many times equal and often best the old ways, but I sure wish they made pre 64 Winchesters, actually pre 1952 with those carefully hand lapped, single hook cut barrels. How many of those are still shooting MOA? Lots of them.

You're not being argumenitive? Hart offers barrels in all contours, go to their website. Most of the known and better barrelmakers buy their steel from the same sources and use the same melt of steel. It is pretty hard to understand what you are saying. You jump from one thing to another that has nothing to do with the last thing that you said.
I camped out next to the North Pole once, but I ain't Santa Claus.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by airgun1:
I made no mention of Shaw or Adams and Bennet junk.

Funny people seem to such a low opinion of the A&B barrels.
In the 90's I built two each: 220 Swift (HB),257 Ackley's , 30-06, 375 H&H and 1 each: 243, 7x57, 6.5x55 (All Mid-Weights) with A&B barrels from Midway .
ALL of these weapons shoot MOA, these are hunting rifles with wood (some laminate) stocks,
all were Mauser actions(trued).

While I use PacNor, Douglas,Shilen ,Hart, Krieger and others for match barrels, I have nothing derogatory to say about the A&B's I used.
Granted this is an isolated builder and a small run of rifles, for me there were no bad apples.

I've seen these discussions before, and they always end up going nowhere, with everyone retaining their opinions that they started with. I wish one time it could be different.

I wish one time we could deal with the facts, and unfortunately I too am also inadequately informed in that department.

For example, I always figured you get what you pay for in barrels, and A&B, Shaw, etc., were for those more concerned with saving money than getting a real accurate barrel.

Another thing, do we really know for sure that the major barrel makers use the same steel? Many of them say they have special formulated steel - I just dunno. I do know, for example, the Kreiger changed steel a few years ago because the steel they were using was too tough on the life of their tools. (At least that's what I read) I remember numerous discussions about the supposedly difficult machinability of LW stainless, and likewise discussions of how Shilen steel is preferred by gunsmiths because "it cuts smooth as butter".

From this, I concluded that Shilen steel is soft, and LW steel is tougher, which should translate into longer barrel life.

I could go on, but you take it from here. I think ther is something to this, and would really like to know facts.

KB

I am fairly sure Armalite uses Wilson and I believe Cooper used to if they still don't. I have a Wilson, 'NM Armalite", Krieger, "M1 Garand", Shilen, Lilja, Douglass and McGowen, and I can't say any of them, are bad shooters.

Kabluewy,
I understand what you are saying. Kreiger did not change steels. They tried 410 Stainless for a while to be able to make the lightweight barrels in stainless. It didn't have all the sulphur that makes 416R free machining and it stands up better than 416R in cold weather. They quit using it and I suspect that it was a machining issue. Don't quote me on that. LW50 stainless is not in favor by many gunsmiths as it is a type of precipitating hardness stainless and takes special methods to machine. I believe that it is similar to 17-4. It seems to last longer than 416R. From visiting with the barrel makers, it seems the concensus is Crucible Steel is favored when it is available. The larger the buyer the better your chances are.
At the Super Shoot last month I broke bread at the same table with Eric Stecker, runs Berger Bullets, the Shilen guys and the Rock River barrel makers. They share the same problems and the same steel. Most of them spec 28-32 Rockwell. Basically the difference between those 2 was Shilen pulls buttons and Rock is a cut rifled group. Sounds like they use the same machines to drill and ream. Shilen also does CM and I am pretty sure that Rock only does SS. The Rock 30 cal. barrels are hot right now.
Most people don't know that the better barrel makers run a lot of test barrels with each new melt of steel. It drills, reams, and either buttons or cut rifles different than the last melt. Drill points are reshaped, speeds and feeds changed and maybe the buttons or cutters are changed. Some barrel makers make no changes and the barrels differ more from lot to lot.
Kreiger, Bartlein, Shilen, Rock River, Lilja, and Douglas make very fine barrels at this time. You will get consistantly good barrels from them.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:
How many rounds can I expect of accurate barrel life of a Krieger SS barrel in 338 Win Mag caliber? Kriger says under FAQ on their webpage that there is no difference in longevity between their CrMo and Stainless steel barrels - both last the same.. But how long barrellife can I expect? Experiences?
Thanks..

Ulrik

Getting back to your original question:

IF you shoot mostly 3 shot groups, OR let the barrel COOL when doing a lot of load develoment,

AND you do not damage the throat or the crown when cleaning, then I would expect a Krieger bbl in 338 Win Mag to give around 3000 to 3500 rounds of accurate hunting life.

And when I am lucky enough to shoot a barrel out, I gladly buy another.

Butch:
From the left side, you do indeed look a bit like Santa!
Got your brass yesterday.

I don't have time for the rest of this thread.

Alan Warner

Hello,
Whole array of variables to answer your question as to barrel life for Krieger in your caliber, but 338Win.Mag. not normally thought of as a match rifle caliber, mostly hunting/sporting rifle and the number of rounds will be far less than match shooting, so most likely Krieger and others as well will last lifetimes for their intended purpose. Most match shooters will maintain a data book w/number of rounds fired, wind direction, light, scores, load data, etc. and due to the record keeping any drop off in scores will begin to show up w/ a known number of rounds down the barrel. Many High Power and Long Range competitors use Krieger and they will perform w/ the best of them out there and live as long as any of them.
I personlly shoot the throat out to such a degree that it either needs replaced or rechambered, cut off the breech end, recut chamber and go on from there. In 308 caliber, some went beyond 4000 rnds and some only 3000 rnds before needing replaced or rechambered. I only had one cut/rechambered and it lasted some 12-1400 rnds additional before I scrapped it. When I say scrapped, did not throw it away, but put it on a sporting rifle and it kills like it did not know any better. Most unlikely you will "shoot out" a 338WinMag w/ proper cleaning in your lifetime. I only live some 10 miles or so from Douglas and all of the above applies to them as well. Used both to earn Master Rating, XC and High Master in Long range and both did well if I did my part. Just my experience w/ barrels and never felt the need to try some of the other mfg.'s out there so long as these two held the 10 or X ring. Good reliable equipment is certainly important, but the "trigger puller" is the most important factor.

martin

You'll have to work long and hard to wear out a Krieger in 338. It'll still be shooting very well when we're all dead!

Re Wilsons and highpower - for Service Rifle matches, at least half the tubes on the line are Wilsons since they come on Rock River, Armalite, White Oak and most of the other AR's except Colt. They have been used to win the National SR Championship at Camp Perry. In Service Rifle, a Wilson is no hindrance - but it won't be a long term relationship!

That said, my Palma rig wears a Bartlein

A local note - Cooper Arms (six miles from my house) is now owned by Wilson and has used their barrels for many years.

Mark
NRA High Master
Distinguished, yada yada

Depends upon 2 things mostly; how hot you let your barrel get and the burn rate of the powder you use

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Kabluewy,
I understand what you are saying. Kreiger did not change steels. They tried 410 Stainless for a while to be able to make the lightweight barrels in stainless. It didn't have all the sulphur that makes 416R free machining and it stands up better than 416R in cold weather. They quit using it and I suspect that it was a machining issue. Don't quote me on that.

Kreiger, Bartlein, Shilen, Rock River, Lilja, and Douglas make very fine barrels at this time. You will get consistantly good barrels from them.
Butch

I remember reading on Krieger's site maybe three to five years ago that they were changing steels, and I think it was the CM steel. I got the impression that they had been using a special steel a long time, which was harder than their competitor's, but wore out tooling quicker.

So, their SS is another issue. It's a mystery to me that they refuse to turn SS blanks to normal sporting contours. If they are using the same steel as the others, who make sporting SS contours, then in effect Kreiger is saying the others are unsafe. Or Kreiger, in their judgment, is useing a different steel that is not safe if turned smaller than the contour they offer.

KB

woods, why would a slow burning powder loaded to the same PSI wear out a barrel faster than a fast burning powder?

Kreiger is using the same stainless and maybe they are just more cautious. The time frame that you mentioned is about the time they quit the other stainless. They would do the smaller contours with it, but not the present SS.
Butch

Kreiger also Cryo's all steel before rifleing. They will also cryo after if you request. More fuel for the fire.

They do cryo and also stress relieve with heat in the oven. I believe the cryo makes it a little easier to machine and is easier on tooling. Cryo does nothing for the longevity or accuracy other than the possibility that it helps drill a straighter hole.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Kreiger is using the same stainless and maybe they are just more cautious. The time frame that you mentioned is about the time they quit the other stainless. They would do the smaller contours with it, but not the present SS.
Butch

OK, thanks for the info Butch.
KB

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
woods, why would a slow burning powder loaded to the same PSI wear out a barrel faster than a fast burning powder?

I would think that it is because it takes a little longer to burn so the heat in the chamber lasts a few milliseconds longer. It would be not only the heat but the length of time it is applied to the beginning of the lands.

The reason is that with a slower burn rate powder you are using a larger volume of powder that burns longer. With a faster burn rate powder you are using a smaller volume of powder that burns quicker. The hot jet of burning gases take steel with it down the tube. At some point the throat is burned out to the point that any accuracy is lost.