At fifty yards, all rifles will shoot close.

How about a hundred yards (or meters):

How tight a four-shot-group does your rifle ALWAYS shoot with your good load?

I have been playing around now for a year with three double rifles, two overunders and one SXS.

What I find is an occasional 2 inch group, but a whole lot of 3-4 inch groups for 4-6 shots. The heat here in Phoenix certainly plays havoc on my attempts in the summer, with 95 degree ammo and barrel for the "cold barrel shots". but even in fall winter the groups just seem to stay in that range.

Now, I use my hands under forend and butt against shoulder, rather than bench rest bags, but even so it is a frustrating reality.

Here in Arizona we cant really hunt for big game due to the drawing odds being so low, so we have to fake it by paper hunting....

How do your results do?

PS I shoot 7mm, 8mm, and 9.3mm doubles.

Jameister
A couple of questions.
Are you shooting iron sights or do you get the same results with a scoped double.
Do your rifles shoot all good groups on a given day or do the good and "bad" groups happen on the same day?

One thing you might try; take an accurate bolt rifle to the range and shoot it the same day from the same position as you do your doubles. If you are shooting your doubles with iron sights shoot the "accurate" rifle with iron sights too.
You may find that the expanded groups are because you are not shooting from a "rock solid benchrest", and as all double rifle shooters know the double is not designed to be shot from a rock solid bench rest.
I think that 3 to 4 inch six shot groups at 100 yards with an iron sight double, from field positions would be A-OK.
Try shooting at 200 yards and see how the rifles do.

3 to 3.5 is ok at 50 and 6" is ok at 100 for the average double rifle..More of them shoot that io worse in the real world....

I owned a double 450-400 that would shoot 1" at 50 all day long, one hole at 25, never shot it at 100 but hit every animal at that range that I ever shot at...

My present 450-400 will shoot about 3 inches at 50 and 5" at 100, but I had to do a lot of ground work to get that including changing sights and bullet size...It had me concerned for quite awhile...

The main thing to keep in perspective for hunting big animals is they will work at 50 yards and under regardless....

If you want a tack driver then shoot a bolt gun. and thats probably the best route for 95% of African hunters...The double is at its best up close and personal when all the chips are used up, they are the rabbit in the hat.....

Ray
What bullet diameter and powder charge did you find out was best for your new 450/400 3 1/4"?

Jameister
You ask for references regarding double rifle precision. My double sbs never spreads a dual shot more than 40 mm at 80 meters, regulary between 10 and 30 mm with a 4x scope. (.303Brtitish 150gr Norma factory load)
Martin

Why buy a double rifle? with a fine bolt action rifle you get almost as fast 2nd shoot and much faster 3-4nd shoots and with MUCH better accuracy.

I suspect 4 MOA will put more meat on the table than we could ever eat, but this post brings up some good questions: How much accuracy do we need to hunt big game? How should we measure it?

As for what we need, I suspect Jameister's groups are at least as good as (if not better than) what many double rifle users got back in the day. And truth be told, they're probably better than what a lot of bolt gun shooters get today. Lots of 4 MOA rifles bring home venison when the hunter does his part.

As for measuring accuracy, we should come up with a drill to measure how a shooter handles a rifle under a wide range of conditions instead of swelling up about what one rifle did on one time on one perfect day. Kind of like El Presidente for the combat pistol crowd.

Now the third question, and I know it's heresy to ask it on a site called "Accurate Reloading." Haven't we replaced magnum mania with accuracy mania? And can't we learn something from that?

Okie John

2.5" to 2.8", always!! (100 meters)

Posts like this cause one to stop and ponder: Are we speaking to the accuracy of the rifle, or the accuracy of the person using the rifle. A LOT of rifles are capable of very fine shooting off the bench, some into an inch or less - the oft-stated 'minute-of-angle.' How many hunters are capable of this? Who knows.
Try this little experiement and see if you can "qualify!" Hang up some 10" paper plates in plain sight but preferable in an area with some brush and shrubs - not a lawn like surface. Take your favorite rifle and loads, run two hundred yards and up to the one hundred yard mark, now fire ten at the plate - off hand, rapid fire and at least one reload . How many rounds in the ten inch plate? I've seen very few hunters that could do better than five out of ten under these circumstances. If you do very well, try it again - only this time shoot between sundown and dark and see how well you do.
A sad but true fact is that very little game is shot from other than the standing, off hand position - at least that has been my experience. We would all have better records if we could take the game from the bench at an exact measured distance from the muzzle but I just can't get the animals to cooperate.
Regards,

in reply to a couple of questions: These are with scopes, shot from sitting, but with open palm hold and against shoulder.

To Overkill: Funny you should lecture regarding accuracy and bolt rifles, since your obsession with energy belies any consideration of accuracy or practicality. I do agre that bolt actions are more accurate, although my double routinely produce less than 1 MOA for each barrel, Its just a bugger to get them both into the same MOA due to temperature, hot barrels, and the Double-Gun-Rifle-gremlin(DGR GREMLIN).

Regards the comparison of bolt and breakaction on the same day, same conditions: Great idea. I do shoot my breakaction single shot7mm adn my double 7mm together. I have not yet tried a 7mm bolt for true comparison.

Regards how accurate is needed? None of this is about need anyway, is it? if it were we would all be shooting 200 dollar milsurp rifles in 8X57 or 30-06.

regards the idea about plate hanging: the other day after trying all my chrony loads, adn meticulous record keeping, I had some off spec spare reloads left, so I stood up, and offhand shot at the 9 inch steel gong, hit 3 of 4 times at 100 yards, with one a wee bit low. then for finale, shot the 6 inch plate for a direct hit. with my last bullet. I turned around and the four guys from the adjoining tables all looked very approvingly. did not notice they had stopped shooting...

And finally to Martin and Ray and Others that actually answered the question, thank you.

Off for a week at Lake Powell and hope to see what what when I return.

Jamie

NE450 no.2,
The bore was supposed to be .408 but in reality it was .409 and almost .410 on the other barrel....I tried .411 bullets and satisfied its ills...I now have on order some .410 Woodleighs.

It seems to like 70 grs. of RL-15 and 71.5 grs. of RL-15 with about 3 grs. of pillow fiber. Will be trying foam next..I use a 50 cal MG case for a punch but I need a leather punch as the brass won't hold up very well. It gets dull and bends. I may have to make one out of steel if I can't find one...

Ray
I use a 50BMG case to cut out my foam too. I sharpen it with a chamfer tool [the big magnum C-H deburr tool]and use some "wrist" action to saw/cut the foam instead of just trying to "punch" it out. I use a sharp dental tool to pull the foam out of the 50 case. As long as the case mouth is sharp it cuts through the foam almost as good as a hot knife through butter.
Have you tried IMR 4831 in the new 400 yet?

Jameister,
The ones I have able to play with, no I do not have my own yet, my friends doubles have depended on maker and ammo some were incredibly accuate on the order of 2" at 100 yds. Some lesser makers would not stay inside 4". however you have to remember what these were made to do. 4" at 100 is more than good enough to put one in the boiler room of a buff.
KAB

I am talking about the accuracy of my double from a bench at 100 meters with a 1X-4X Leupold on it. I certainly can't hold it and shoot that close without a rest. From the kneeling position, I can keep it inside a 6" circle at 100 meters. It is an 8X60 RS shooting 200-grain Nosler Partitons at 2600 FPS.

NE 450 No.2,

Thats what I use except I hit it with a hammer and the edges get messed up after about 30 plugs, I will try it your way...

I have not had a lot of luck so far with IMR-4831 with this gun, nor with RL-22....But I have some .410 Woodleighs on order and thats going to change things a bit...It shoots well enough now for hunting at 3" at 50 with 71.5 or 70 grs. of RL-15 with some 2" groups now and then...It is coming around...It sure is a nice Birmingham gun with the spade shaped dolls head and forward lever schnable lookin forend release, just a beatiful gun...Army Navy by WR?? Not sure.

Ray
I have been using the same 50 BMG case since I started using foam, I just resharpen as necessary. Just be sure the mouth of the case does not hit your skin as you "saw" through the foam.

Jamiester
I have shot 4 inch groups at 200 yards with my 9,3 Chapuis, with scope. I was shooting standing off the roof of the car not at a bench.

Have owned a few doubles, my best shooter, maybe thirty years ago was a Westley Richards SXS detachable lock .318 of all things had an 8x Zeiss Zeilacht in claw mounts would put four in two inches notwithstanding the right barrel very badly worn at the breech. Second best a double 9.3x74R over 20 ga. drilling, open sights smoked using Merit iris gadget on my shooting glasses, keeps 8, I said eight, shots inside 3" all the time, still have that one, made by AFW Timner, Coblenz, a really super gun. Both with factory ammo. Third best a 9x57R by Gastinne Renette, Paris, the duelling pistol people, boxlock ejector handloaded for this one with 200 and 250 grain bullets had a scope got it to stay inside 3" for four shots with both bullets with and without scope, four different loads. Only double I ever handloaded for. Killed a big whitetail on Anticosti Island with the 250 Hornady shot it right through a foot thick tree. Wish I still had that rifle. Fanciest double I ever owned was a Rigby double sidelock ejector .350 No. 2 wrote a long article for Double Gun Journal on it in 1999, it would just about stay in 4" for four shots, factory ammo, open sights smoked with the Merit gadget on my glasses. All shooting from bench rest at 100 yards. Those were my four best, had a few others that didn't come close. Don't ask me about many failed experiments with percussion doubles, with a friend am now trying to get an original Whitworth .451 to shoot, both barrels drilled from one chunk of steel, have original molds and all the original loading stuff and we are struggling !!!

Jameister , I think you have a rifle that shoots very well. The double rifle is a hunting rifle, not a target rifle, and your shooting off hand from your hind legs proves your rifle, and you are up to the task! Though a bolt rifle may, or may not, be more accurate than your double is not the question here! Even the target rifles that will print, one hole, 5 shot groups at 100 yds, will not print better than your double when fired off hand,by most hunters, as a hunting rifle most often is.

To answer Overkill's question, I'll just say, why would you worry about the reason for buying a double rifle? You have absolutely no need for a double rifle to punch paper. The thing you seem to be empressed by is, "SIZE MATTERS", and I submit you will get a real lesson if you go up against a real double rifle shooter, with your bolt rifle. The first two AIMED shots from a double, will be far faster, than your bolt, and the third shot will be as quick, and better aimed than the third shot from your bolt, with the fourth shot far and away faster than the fourth shot from your bolt rifle, That is if both are of sufficient power to be called DGR rifles, and that the bolt rifle has every advantage for reliability it can have, to avoid jams.

Four shots from a bolt, starting with the rifle already aimed, rifle requires 7 moves for each shot after the first pull of the trigger. Tha is one move for the first shot, and 21 moves for the next three. While the double requires no more than one move, changeing triggers, between the first two shots from a double. With only six moves to reload, and fire the third shot, and one more to fire the fourth shot from a double. that's a total of 8 moves for the double to fire four aimed shots, compared to 22 moves to make the four shots from you bolt rifle, assumeing you don't jam the bolt getting in too big of a hurry.

[ 07-19-2003, 21:06: Message edited by: MacD37 ]

well the lake powell gods were good indeed, and I have just returned to find that the Arizona game and fish has awarded my son and I a pair of the fifty antlered deer licenses for the fabled North Kaibab hunt in last week of November. Five years drawless here, and finally... the big one.

Now the question: Do I take the old and weathered but still fairle accurate double rifle, or the new light weight single shot?

Good choices and I am off to the range tomorrow at dawn, the only time to shoot here in Arizona, and then I will have new group results... and maybe some more confidence to boot.

Thanks for all the input...

Jameister

Jameiester

On your choice of rifles, I have been to Africa, once in 1988, at the time I owned a couple of Best Quality Rigby sidelock ejectors. The outfitter asked if I'd ever been in Africa, received a negative reply, and then in no uncertain voice announced "This is your first trip, don't play at Teddy Roosevelt, leave the doubles in New York and bring a scope sighted .375 magnum". I have always regretted that I took this well meant advice. I shot lots of game with the .375 but the experience was not what it would have been with the Rigbys.

Vigillinus: nice note. I shot a moose with a double rifle at 165 yards, not a great shot, but a nice shot it was. More memorable than an elk at 200 yards with a bolt action.

Just got back Sunday from the range, and finally did achieve my goal of finding the converging load for my double 7X65R. four shots into less than half inch, and six into less than 0.8 inch.

Then with really hot barrels, the last four broke the group of ten shots out to 2.5 inches. at 100 yards. BUt this was off the sand bags. ANd the really bad news, of course this wasachieved with Sierra Match Kings!! dont mean to start a thread, but are match kings a hunting bullet in a double rifle? hardly.

Back to the drawing board for bullets, but I do know the rifle will regulate 150 grain bullets at 2670 feet per second.

Jameister

I have no practical experience but there has been lots of discussion on the various fora (plural of forum, studied Latin in high school) of Match Kings for hunting and the general consensus is they should not be used. You can do some searches to confirm this if you like. Very impressed with your 7x65R's shooting though.

Vigillinus

Virg:

And then would possa be the plural of possum?

I will post more information when I get back from a little road trip to trout land in Montana.

I do need to see if my old double will duplicate that best of hundreds day with the SMK, and then I suppose need to try some more 150 grain bullets to see which ones come closest..

thanks for the input.

Jameister