Hi, - I was wondering what cartridge besides .308 Win. and 7mm.08Rem I should choose if what I wanted was a high precision rifle with short barrel (20 - 22") to be used for competition (Norwegian "Hunter class") with a max. weight of 4.5 kg. (rifle and optics, without cartridges)and also for elk size game hunting.

I'm asking, since I do not want to "miss out" on a cartridge I ought to have been aware of.

There is one answer that is never wrong -.30-06

What's this "Hunters Class" competition like?

Is there rapid fire, what positions, how many shots, moving targets? I need to know the details.

To win a competition it helps to have the minimum recoil in any case.

I think you have pretty much nailed the two top candidates in .308 and 7mm-08. Others might include wildcats like the 6.5 X 284. But do you want to be getting into wildcats?

I would think anything with a larger bore than .30 would generate too much recoil for the competition aspect and anything much less than 7mm (.284) would be too light for the hunting needs.

The .308win is excellent for competition (that has been proven) and is a top notch hunting ctg. not perfect for exclusive use at only one or the other of your requirements but certianly the best compromise in my opinion.

I know nothing about your particular match, but I have hunted and competed in the US. 4.5 kg is 9.9 lbs: a light match rifle or a heavy sporter. Off the top of my head: 6.5x55, 6.5x57, 7x57, 7-08, 284, 308, 270, 280, 30-06, 8x57, and 8x60. Use a lighter cartridge in a heavier rifle if you shoot mostly in competition, and a heavier cartridge in a lighter rifle if you're more of a hunter. As for me, I'd get whatever uses the cheapest ammo. They are all accurate and will kill game if you do your part. Okie John.

To actually use on elk sized game you would be hard pressed to beat the 358 Win.

The 358 win is what I'ld chose.

If you are going bolt action,I'd say 30-06. The .308 is a fine round but to me the thing that separates it from the 30-06 is being short, it adapts to other actions better. If you get it in bolt you negate that aspect. You mentioned the 7mm-08 so it doesn't sound like you are thinking above .30 cal,if so I'd say the .35 Whelen.

358 Winchester

In Norway, I'd suspect that tens (maybe hundreds) of thousands of Elk have been harvested with the 6,5x55.

The .30-'06 is adequate for any game on the North American Continent, so; are the Elk bigger and harder to harvest in Norway?

Heavier hitting cartridges that these also recoil more, maybe too much to permit the kind of repetitive marksmanship practice a competent hunter needs to perform to assure a reliable hit. The .30-'06 was selected by the US military partly becasue it was considered the heaviest recoiling cartridge the average soldier could handle repeatedly in a military context.

Lighter cartridges, like those based on the .308 case, will not have the same power as the 6,5x55 or .30-'06, and whether adequate or not will be proportionally that much less adequate. It longer ranges, this power difference makes more difference in bullet terminal performance.

I would suggest a Winchester Mod 70 lightweight rifle, or possibly this.

Greg

[ 09-06-2003, 15:15: Message edited by: Greg Langelius ]

I think the important thing to remember in this thread is Jedi is asking for a dual purpose rifle. The two roles this rifle must perform in requires lighter recoil and adequate power.

I think it is a somewhat narrow band of cartridges that will fulfill both. But being as how he is in Norway, the 6.5X55 seems like a natural since it is a native cartridge for him and has a fine reputation in both roles (accuracy and hunting). I'm not certin he would have immediate access for supplies for the 358 win although it is a great cartridge for elk hunting (I'm having one of my MRC SA built in one).

358 Win

I would opt for a cz 550 Full stock in 9.3x62 and load some woodleigh or Barnes X 250 gr bullets in it.

But I am from Australia so what would I know about Elk But thats what I would choose for a close cover elk rifle

The Alpha and Omega of short action, carbine cartridges... the 308 Win of course!

My short barrelled Elk rifle is in 338 Win Mag. A Dumoulin, mannlicher style stock, FN Mauser action, about a 20.5" barrel. Shoots very well, a little muzzel blast with the short barrel but not too distracting.

.338/'06, .35 Whelen, or .358 Winchester if going with a short action! By 'elk' I assume you are referring to that big varmint that we call a moose over here!

easy, 350 rem mag.............
woofer

Well Elkslayer, several Texans shot it at the Houston shoot (one of them was a lady)and nobody complained about recoil. Of course many of them shoot 375's, 416's and 458's so I guess it's what you are used to. I only hunt with 250 gr. loads but have shot a bunch of the Remington 225 gr., Federal 210 gr. and Winchester 200 gr. loads for practice and they make the gun a real pussy cat.

It's the largest bore that I shoot regularly and rarely more than 20 rounds at a sitting. I usually take 3-4 rifles when I go to the range so most of them only get about 20 shots each.

What a pleasure dealing with you over the net, hope you have more of your helpful wisdom to share with us in the future.

I saw the headder to this topic and my first reaction was 358 Win, and then I read the rest. There is no way that the bunch of people suggesting chamberings such as 338 win mag and 350 rem mag read Jedi's post.

You are on the right track, the 308 would be the one to beat IMO. A 284 win or a 7X57 might serve you well also.

Well guess I'm all wrong then.

I never realized just how popular the 338Win Mag, 375H&H, 458Win Mag, and the 416 is at all of those competitions. Especally when the rifle/cartridge is listed in Shooting Sports along with the winners name. I'd better start looking around a little closer at the rifles at the matches.

I think Browningguy is onto something that all of the competition community isn't aware of! I do have to wonder what all of the complaining is about with people on these forums complaining about recoil. I always thought less recoil made for better shooting and shot recovery. Geeze, all of my instructors must have been crazy. Why I even remember my DI putting his rifle against his crotch and firing it to demonstrate how his rifle didn't recoil. Maybe we should attemt this with one of these calibers.

Thanks for enlightening me Browningguy.

Oh and by-the-way could you post what competition you shoot in where the course of fire is 20 rounds for record and you get to use 3 or 4 rifles during the match. I'm not familiar with that one.

I guess I really started something here ...
Thank you very much for your reply, - all of you.

I'm going for .308Win. I guess ... The ammo is cheap (lots of practice), it utilizes a short barrel well, - better than a 6.5x55 do (allready got one rifle in this caliber, - of course - being a scandinavian) and the .308 gives plenty of performance, - more than enough for elk, anyway (our "elk" has the same "look" as a moose, but is of elk size and in Norwegian/Swedish it's named "elg" pronounced 'aelg'). And when the performance is plenty enough, - shot placement is a major factor.
One very good thing is its (.308W) relative low recoil. In a competition you are often pressed for time, and want most of this time focused on the target and on performing well (trigger pull, rifles movement, range estimating/bullet trajectory ...) and it has an impressive record on its capability as an accurate cartridge.

There is more, much more to write on this ...
Thanks again for all your reply
(I also own a rifle in 9.3x64 B for the bigger game ...)

The Norwegian "Hunters class" of competition.
Intro:
There have always been a great deal of interest in shooting in scandinavia. In scandinavia
(and especially Norway, - since we have'nt had any aristocracy here since the 15. century) there have always been "peoples right" to be able to hunt. Therefore there's not much of an "anti hunting" movement here compared to the rest of europe (here there's fortunately only a few messed up "city-dwellers" who dont know where meat comes from - that's against hunting).

The level of marksmanship and general shooting skill has always been in focus here. Hunting and your shooting skills have always been connected.
(- But still there are a few hunters out there who should never have pointed a rifle at an animal).

Theres MANY competition classes. They differ in MANY ways and some combine the use of rifle and shotgun (clays and moving/appearing figures)...

Hunters class
- is a competition where ones rifle must weigh in at less than 4.5 kg (w optics) and where stiff, heavy shooters clothing, a sling, special shoes ... is'nt allowed.
You can compete in "elk-shooting" or in "Hunters path".
Elk Shooting: Distance 100 m.Time limit 2 min.
1. post: 5 shots sitting. The target concisting of 4 rings, with the centre being 15 cm accross - counting as a "inner 5" (5 points) the next ring, 20 cm accross, also 5 points and then 5cm more and 4 points - and the outer circle 3 points.
2. post: Same target, distance and time limit - standing 5 shots ...
3. post: Running elk. 80 meters. A target a little bit larger than the previous, placed in a "cardboard elk" in the "vital zone" (full size), - it is pulled at a speed of approx. 10 km/h accross a distance of approx. 15 meters. 5 shots at 5 "passes" for the elk figure.

"Hunters path":
Here there's no moving targets, but the targets are in size and shape like the animals it portrays (some are like "picture posters" of the animal)and the target aerea is the vitals. The competitors walk a path. They come to a "range" where the target are placed at a distance previously unknown. The distance to target(type of animal is given by the target)is disclosed, and also if you may shoot prone, sitting or standing. You have 5 shots and 2 minutes. The whole path may concist of 5 - 7 posts and the targets may vary in max points and size from 5 - 10 points and from varmin size (crow, owl, stoat/ermine...) to "big game" (reindeer, deer ...), also predators like Lynx and wolverine ...

I registered that there was some interest in what tihis competition was like. I hope this has given you a picture.

Oh, - I forgot to say concerning "elk shooting" it's the radius, not the diametre I'm referring to when I mention the increase in target-rings.
Also I forgot to mention the distances in "Hunters path": from 40 meters - to 200 meters.
Sorry.

Yours.

Having competed in similar matches the best gun was an autoloader with peep sights if the bullseyes are dark in color and of similar size.

I used a M1 Garand but I think 4.5 kg = 9.9 lbs and even the M-14 would be too heavy as might a BAR. The Remington 740 would work however and might even sport a scope and get under the weight.

The cartridge does not matter that much but there must be a minimum one in terms of bullet weight and energy in Norway?

So that's my pick, a 740 in .308 Win as long as autoloaders are legal.

Oh I forgot to ask before. What is an "Elk" in Norway? Is it a moose and at what ranges would it be shot at?

[ 09-08-2003, 20:41: Message edited by: Savage 99 ]

"Elk" in Scandinavia (or in Europe for that matter) = "Moose" in North America.

If the purpose is competition, with a bit of hunting thrown in, no better cartridge than the .308! Great accuracy potential, cheapish ammo, yet easily capable of downing a moose. Good choice!

- mike

It's correct that european 'elg' = moose as a specie, but it is a lot smaller. Typical weight of a bull is 250 - 300 kg. In Canada/Alaska a moose bull may weigh at least twice.

There's a specific formula that is used when a cartridge with a specific bulletweight is concidered for elk/moose hunting. Calibers smaller than "our" 6.5 (not .257) is'nt legal.
The 6.5x55 just barely makes it as a "class 1" cartridge (allowed for elk/moose) - and that's only with the heavier bullets. Statistically the 6.5x55 not only is the most used cartridge for elk/moose hunting (Sweden!), but is also ONE OF the cartridges that gives the best "results" on elk/moose - giving "good, clean kills". Statistics clearly tells that shot placement is
#1 when it comes to killing an animal. Cartridges like 9.3x62 and .358 Norma Mag. seems to be the very best elk/moose cartridges. Any "tougher" and it seems to "loose" when it comes to shot placement.

I almost forgot ...

Again - statistically - it seems that the average range for shooting european moose is 70 meters.
The range is very seldom longer than 150 meters (it also becomes unethical to shoot at longer ranges).

With the 358 Win, you can use light bullets if you can get them to shoot. I think a lot of them can and will shoot the 150's designed for the 35 Rem. In an almost 10lb gun, and loaded properly, this would be a great light recoiling gun. Loaded stout, and with a good 225-250gr bullet, it will stomp most things just nice. And the cheap 308 brass can be used.

Perhaps it's already been mentioned... 284 Winchester. Just a bit more oompa-loopma for the elk-size critter that the 7mm-08, and is capable of producing 280ish velocities out of a 22 in barrel. Premium quality brass can be made in seconds from Norma or Lapua 6.5-284 brass.

I asked my master gunsmith. In his opinion the 8x57 IS and the 9,3x62 have no problems with shorter barrels in accuracy and velocity. The 8x57 with 200 gr barnes or better the 9,3x62 with the 293 gr Brennecke TUG will do the job up to 300 yrds with no problems.
I use a 9,3x62 with a 20" barrel and never had problems up to 250 yrds (this gun I use is mostly for wild boars)

Burkhard

Clarify something for me. What is one oompa-loompa equal to?

308 is a great choice, you won't be sorry. It will do both with ease.

[ 09-17-2003, 13:18: Message edited by: Bobby ]

Jedi

9,3X57 or 9,3X62 would be suitable, maybe on e of the 8mm like 8X57 or 8X64S
A real exotic offer would be 10,75X57 or 10,75X68, but then ammo will be a problem...

/ JOHAN

PC - I like your idea . I`ve got a Rem FS 20" barreled 350mag , similar ballistics to my 9.3.

The shooting competitions Jedi described sound very interesting and a great way to practice before hunting season. Is anything like that being done in the USA?