The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles Why 26" barrel on .300 Win Mag?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Dont quote a source... get blasted. Quote a source... get blasted. You guys belive what you want. keep swingin' those 28" tubes around and beliving itss helping you. i dont care. | |||
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KStephens The reason many of us are skeptical of your comment is that it is inconsistent with our experience and with that of others. Your original comment was that 26" barrels were the result of moving from peep or receiver sights to sights in the middle of rifles. The earliest rifle that I have with the sights mounted amidships is a Trapdoor Springfield. It was a 1873 model. I guess the next series would be tie between some late 1800 Mausers, SMLE's, and Moisen-Nagant's. While many of these older rifles have long barrels, I don't believe it was to provide sighting radius. I think they just want to have longer spears when they fixed bayonets. Having loaded, for example, 308 bore rifles with barrels as short as 18.5 inches and up to 26 inches, I will assure you that barrel length is necessary for achieving decent velocities in underbore cases and "even" cases. You just can't get enough powder within the limits of strength of the action to reach high velocities in a really short barrel. You have to shoot a relatively light projectile and use fast powders to get speed. The shorter the barrel, the more issues you have. At about a 20" tube,you begin to reach decent velocities with a 308 bore. A 22 or 23" barrel seems to be the standard for non-magnum cases. Conversely, if you are shooting an overbore rifle (magnum case), a longer tube lets you burn more of the powder in the tube where it increases velocity and it reduces muzzle blast. As someone pointed out, you get more velocity going from 18" to 20" and from 24" to 26" if you hold your bullet weight, powder, and powder charge constant. However, I can change bullet weights for one result, powder quickness for yet another result and powder charge for a third result. I can play with all three to develop an optimum load for a given situation. Ultimately, barrel length is determined by how it handles and how hard it shoots. When it comes to velocities, your data shows that shifting from standard cases to magnum cases in the same bore size will add at best about 25yds to the point blank range. That's it Folks. But there are many of us who put up with the hassles and added expense for that silly 25yds. Kudude | |||
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DO YOU HAVE A SOURCE?????  EVERYTHING i have read says that is not the case, therfore since I am the authority you must be wrong. Isnt that how it works? ANd by the way kudoode, I didnt say "that 26" barrels were the result of moving from peep or receiver sights to sights in the middle of rifles." I said
So here is another UNBASED statement for you to track down. During Americas western migration and settlement many on horseback found reciver/ peep sights to be too fragile for everyday use on a working carbine. Buckhorn or semi-buckhorn sights were the answer but brought about a new problem. By moving the rear sight further down the rifle, sight radius was greatly reduced and effected practical accuracy. the anwser was to produce rifles with longer barrels. | |||
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With '06 out there why was there a need for .300 Winmag.  | |||
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Alf - A question (and it really IS a question, not an attempt to argue with what you said above)... If the powder gas is still accelerating (and expanding) in the longer barrels, even though the gas pressure may be relatively low at the muzzle, won't it still be accelerating the bullet in front of it clear to the muzzle? If so, longer barrels will often produce higher velocities, won't they? (Not always, for other reasons.) At least up to some point where friction and air pressure in front of the bullet (resistance) will overcome the proppeling impulse... Yes? No? What's your take on that question, which IS slightly different than asking why factories put 26" tubes on magnum rifles? | |||
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AC.....alf can answer as well but may I also answer?....well I'm going to anyway absolutely correct.....a longer barrel will (almost) always produce greater velocity.....and as a result will have greater energy and greater range. I don't know how anyone can disagree with that! Now if we want to have a discussion we need to ask if the increment is worth the extra weight and inconvenience of length. FWIW I'm willing to bet right now that there are incredibly few (if any) game ever taken with a 26" .300 Magnum that couldn't have been also taken by a competent rifleman toting a 22" .30-06 that was prudently handloaded. I've owned three .300 magnums and can attest that there was never a thing I ever killed with any of them that couldn't have been done (and adequately for sure) with such a .30-06.   /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Vapo- Thanks for your comment. I find your post well reasoned and sensible. I certainly agree with your comments about hunting apllications. I don't see a whole lot of use for magnums in at least 95% of my own hunting, whether long or short barrled. On the other hand, I don't particularly like the feel and balance of short-barrled bolt-action rifles when shooting offhand, so I don't generally hunt with bolt-action tubes shorter than 22", and seldom with ones shorter than 24". That my be due to my build, as I am 6'-3" with long arms for my height (not tall these days, but not short, either). Anyway that seems to be how it works out for me. The exception is with lever guns. There I prefer the 24" barreled, 1/2 mag rifles for balance, but also use the shorter carbines quite a bit. I leave my 26" lever guns at home when hunting because they weigh a figurative ton. But, that may also be because I use the lever guns in rather dense woods, where long barrels CAN be a PITA sometimes. BTW, just in case KStephens is still with us on this thread, I for one never said he was wrong. What I did say is that I am not sure he is right either...in fact I am inclined to believe that whoever told him what he believes about 26" barrels may not have known why they really came about either. Since most of us were not present when the manufacturers made the historical decisions to use 26" barrels, we are all pretty much guessing. My only concern is with claiming one view or another as an absolute fact, without proof that it is. Stated as his opinion, I have no trouble buying the logic of what he said/ It could be true...the operative words being "could be". Anyway, thanks again, I always enjoy your perceptive input. AC | |||
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I belive the length of sporter barrels has always followed the pattern set by military guns of the same era. Most infantry long arms were 29" for the longest; probably a hold-over from black powder tradition and the common use of the baynoet charge until WW II. Calvary carbines were the exception (20"-24" depending...) and there is logic in the idea that the more mobile game hunter was attracted to the carbine barrel length for convenience. All of my pre-war Mausers/Husqvarnas/Enfield sporters have 25 or 26 inch barrels, KSTEPHENS so there is history in that preference. It is the American market that began shortening barrels. Even today most European guns run 650 660 millimeters for their standard and magnum barrels or 25.5 inches give or take. The shorter barrels are found on Battue, Stuzen or other specialty styles. There really isn't any need for long barrels any more than we "need" short barrels. Just let people enjoy what they wish and enjoy what wish. I shoot a 24" 300 Win and a 28" Weatherby 300 depending on my mood, not my need. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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No, it will shoot 2" shorter. The muzzle is always 2" closer to the target.  Hunting: Exercising dominion over creation at 2800 fps. | |||
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Am I allowed to comment on .45-70 velocities? I have a M1895GS with the 18.5" barrel and a M1895XLR with 24" barrel. I have fired identically loaded bullets from each over the Chrony and there is little difference in MV. If I remember rightly it was only about 50-60 fps MV difference. The so-called 40-50 fps per inch thing is nothing but a myth IMHO. I seem to remember John Barsness had an article about barrel lengths and velocity a year or so ago and he found the same thing. A longer barrel will be faster up to a point, but it will not give the type of fps gains per inch that most people like to spout. If you don't believe me, get your Chrony out. | |||
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Try it on something a little higher performance than your slug gun.. You will find that it varies for most bottleneck cartridges to be between 25 to 40fps depending on caliber, loading intensity, and where you are adding the inches. (When I was a kid my father used to tell me that God hated a coward, I finally realized he has even less use for a fool.) | |||
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IME and IMO a 300 win mag works very well with a 24" barrel. Like 3100fps with a 180 with the several I have loaded for. I am currently having a 300 ultra built with a 24" and am not really concerned about the small loss in velocity. | |||
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Congratulations, you will be the proud owner of a REALLY loud and hard kicking 3OO Win.. (When I was a kid my father used to tell me that God hated a coward, I finally realized he has even less use for a fool.) | |||
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Who in the heck would want two more inches? ............................................. | |||
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an old girlfriend I once had would have loved it. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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the same federal GM 308 load that runs 2650-2645 in a remington PSS with a 26" tube runs 2550 average out of my Steyr 20" carbine. thats more like 15 FPS per inch of loss. | |||
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2650 -2550 = 100 fps / 4" = 20fps per inch But hell a person should not let a few facts get in the way of a good story should they? Regardless I do not believe anyone is argueing that a 308 win needs a 26" barrel. I personally think anything over 22 in that little cartridge is silly. And furthermore anything really over 24" on any cartridge built on the 30-06 " 270"280 "25-06 unless they have been improved really works very well in that medium length tube. And yet if anything they would benefit from a couple extra inches, at the expense of a slightly unhandier package. It is when we enter into the handloaded 7 mag "because the factory version is a pussy" and up through the bigger magnums that a 26 is of the most benefit. But I am sure not an advocate for longer barrels, I have one rifle, a long throated 300 Win mag winchester classic that I have opened the magazine to seat longer bullets that has a 26" tube. Everthing else is 24 or less. I just find it humorous when someone puts together something like a Rem Ultra mag in a barrel that will not allow it to outperform a caliber that shooots 20% less powder. So in essence what they have is powder abuse... Ear abuse.. Shoulder abuse... Pocket book abuse.. And packing that heavy bastard abuse... When in actuality they could have done the same thing with a trim, light efficient 24" 30-06. If a person is going to burn a hat full of powder they should give it room to run. (When I was a kid my father used to tell me that God hated a coward, I finally realized he has even less use for a fool.) | |||
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Can someone tell me why a shorter barrel would cause a rifle to recoil more than a longer one? -+-+- "If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." - The Dalai Lama | |||
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26"-20"=6". 100/6=16.6 fps loss per inch. But hell a person should not let a few facts get in the way of a good story should they? | |||
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hell your right,, a man shouldn't. (When I was a kid my father used to tell me that God hated a coward, I finally realized he has even less use for a fool.) | |||
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Federal GM308M shoots 2550 from my SBS tactical w/ a 20" tube. you can belive it or not but until you know the facts you shouldnt call people liars, which by the way is what you are doing. perhaps you should read this article before you doubt it... steyr Velocity Tests Ammunition/Load Temp # Rds per group # Grps Fired Avg Vel Comments Federal 168 gr Match 78 5 3 2600 You may notice that some of these figures seem high for a 19" barrel, but they are the actual data. The hammer forged Steyr barrels are very smooth and higher than normal velocities seem to be the norm. | |||
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I don't doubt your figures, I doubt your reasoning. If there is no gain then hell cut your 300 RUM down to 20 inches.. That is a fireball I would like to see at night. (When I was a kid my father used to tell me that God hated a coward, I finally realized he has even less use for a fool.) | |||
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When my 338 federal was a 308 it had a 26" barrel from Remmy. Shooting the same loads in my rifle and my wife beside me with her 308 with 20" barrel, there was a substantial noise difference. I believe the overbores need the longer tubes to accomodate the slower and slower powders being produced. I strongly believe you do need the burn time when putting in 100 or more grains of retumbo or the like. I've never tested this on the 300 ultra I had previously owned, but if you were to install say a 30" barrel on her, I think you may get awfully close to the 30-378 wby. I think manufacturers stop at 26" for hunting purposes only. Two tests to try is shooting a long barrel vs short barrel at night. (muzzle flash) or install two pieces of cardboard on either side of your long barrel or short barrel and shoot a round out of each. There is a much more noticeable smoke ejected onto the cardboard. To me it is wasted money on powder not using the full barrel. Why bob a 300 winnie to 22" and negate its purpose? Might as well trade her in for a 30-06 with a 22". just my opinion of course. | |||
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and while that might preclude one from shooting a rifle multiple times from the bench without hearing protecion, it hardley passes as a reason not to hunt with the shorter rifle, does it? | |||
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It was my assumption that the reason for going to a 300 win mag was to gain velocity with larger bullets. If he did not care about it, why not shoot an 06 or 08? My 308 has a 20" which I think is perfect for me, but my 7mm rem mag wears a 26" cause I want it to be all it can be, otherwise I would shoot a 280 or 7-08 | |||
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i dont read anything in the original posters comments that would suggest that intention. either way. I buy a rifle for hunting and as such am more concerned w/ how it does in the field not how much flash there is at night, seeing as i dont hunt at night. further it is of little practical importance if the rifle produces an extra 100 FPS at the muzzle but knocks innocent birds of thier perch while slung. | |||
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Probably really doesn't kick all that much harder althought the slightly weight difference is a factor. Probably an example of a short barreled rifle that really beat the hell out of me might make a better explanation. When I bought my first .308 Win., a Remington M660 with 20" barrel, factory and my reloads all using 150 gr. bullets literally kicked the bloody snot out of me. Now I was no stranger to harder kicking rifles and the 660 wasn't all that much of a feather weight gun. For my birthday, the kids bought a set of those Mickey Mouse ear protectors. The next time I went to shoot hat .308, hey! Holy smoke! Where in the hell did the kick go? Same rifle. Same ammo, yet the painful kick was gone. I dunno if rifles with short barrel kick all that much harder, but the muzzle blast sure seems to make them feel as if they do. I never noticed the noise when shooting at game and the gun never seemed to kick all that much, but from the bench prior to the ear protection, that gun was a bitch to shoot. Use a stiff load of H-335 under a 150 gr. bullet with a 20" barrel and shoot it at high noon on a bright summer day. Better yet, have someone else shoot it and you stand to the side and watch for the fireball. Spectacular! Paul B. | |||
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Hell I don't know why I havent seen it all before.. it is so clear now. I am going to buy me a 30-378 and have the barrel cut off to 18" now that will be the greatest 308 a man could have. K, you are a riot my friend. I appreciate that you like shorter barrels, I do as well down to a point. But what you fail to address is where is the point where there is no advantage to the bigger case capacity due to not having the barrel to utilize it in. You do realize that you are so predictable do you not. (When I was a kid my father used to tell me that God hated a coward, I finally realized he has even less use for a fool.) | |||
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this thread is over the .300 Win Mag and 26" barrels..... May I boil it down like this When it comes to .30 caliber.....if you need more than 2,800'/sec with a good 180 grain bullet then you need a bigger caliber. Incredibly few shooters are good enough to actually make use of the faster cartridges increase in range and if it's more power you need you probably should be looking to the old .375 H&H......as the .30 cal 180 at 2,800'/sec is an extremely powerful round capable of dropping almost anything on the planet dead in it's tracks. I bought into the faster and bigger cartridges until I woke up one day watching my African PH drop stuff in it's tracks like magic!!!!!And yes he was using the time honored .30-06..... Bell used a lot less to take several hundred elephants and it just makes me wonder what I was thinking when I decided I needed a .300 Magnum..... I still have a 26" .300 H&H but only as a collector.....All I shoot any more is the old '06 as it's more than I can use..... /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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the Q is and was ... "why is there usually a 26" barrel on factory .300 win mag rifles where as a 22" or 24" is on nearly all other bolt action rifles" the numbers i stated as follows... 300 Win Mag RL-22 powder 180gr bullet 27" 3055fps 26" 3031fps Max Point blank range is 296 yds when zeroed at 251 yds. 25" 3024fps 24" 3003fps 23" 2984fps 22" 2960fps Max Point blank range is 289 yds when zeroed at 246 yds So it seems the answer is, from my perspective, as there is no practical advantage (unless YOU purport a 71 FPS increase to be a fair trade off for an additional 4" of barrel) then the reason must be that the makers of such rifle/ barrel combinations are producing them to answer a need created by people who, like you, belive 71 FPS helps them kill prey. Is it your contention that you need the extra 71 FPS? If not then you belive the extra 4" helps in another area OTHER than velocity since I have proven that the difference in FPS is not great enough to warrant the extra BBL length. So far we have heard about shooting at the range (no applicable to the argument, unless we ARE NOT hunting with this rifle) and the supposed argument about muzzle flash at night (which draws to question exactly what legal game are you night hunting that requires a 300 win mag?) So if i missed the VALID argument for the extra 4" i am sorry. please restate it so i can understand. Right now i am stating to think that some feel the bbl an extension of themselves and would feel "neutered" by a carbines tube. to add one more thing, i am not so delusional as to be unable to recognize the laws of physics. the ruger frontier 300WSM w/ a 16.5" BBL is an absurdity. I would no more recomend that set up than a 30-30 w/ a 24" BBL, which I see has surfaced on the market AS WELL. to the original poster I say this. decide what it is you want to kill. learn to get as close as you can and practice. I find that i can kill pretty much anything i wish at the outer limits of my choice zone w/ , AT MOST, a 30-06 and a 180 gr bullet and 90% of the time with a 20" BBL 308 w/ 165's. should the need arise were I find my self, at night and without proper hearing protection, while toteing a 20" 300 RUM i will only shoot to protect myself. | |||
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Hell I agree.. But yes to me that 71 fps is significant, or why would I pack a 300 mag to begin with if it wasen't. But the bottom line is that I do agree with most all of what you wrote here, and what it comes down to is your preference. Although you have to admit that if we look at the 26" barrels on magnums compared against most of the silly shit they come out with to keep the natives happy they make a ton of sense. You just have a different personal threshhold than some concerning barrel length. I personally don't like any barrel under 22 inches except on my 30-30. I just feel that if I am going to shoot a magnum, I am going to do it only to absolutley maximize my shooting range, and effectiveness,, now I did not say if it actually makes a difference, well it actually does but then does it make a measurable difference? well yes again.. But does it make any real fukin difference to the animals that I shoot or make me any more effective than with my 24 inch 06? Well no not really.. Unless as they say if I need more gun then I need a LOT more gun. Shorter barrels do kick harder, and it has nothing to do with weight reduction, instead it has to do with the "jet" effect of the powder gases. And yes they are louder, and yes a longer barrel does give a little more velocity. BUT this is all to be kept within reason, Your 20 inch 308 is perfect really for anything that is not going to bite yo uback out to about 300, yes just as you say. I personally prefer 22" in my 308 or any other short action. Primarily because too short a barrel makes a rifle feel "whippy" to me and too jumpy on the front. The extra 2" should not make that much of a difference, oh but it does.. Do they benefit from the 2" velocity wise? yep they do but not enough to make a dam bit of difference. Now in my 06/ 270/25-06/ 280 well you get the drift, I really like 24" but probably my favorite 06 has a 22" but I am partial to old tang safety Rugers with adjustable triggers. And it shoots lights out.. Does the 2" make a difference here either? not much, or enough to notice. It is not until I make the break up into the bigger magnums that 26" barrels start to actually pay off. But then again it all goes hand in hand, if we are going ot go whole hog and pack one of those loud, kicking, heavy, powder sucking bastards in the first place what the hell is a couple more inches going to hurt?? of course I am going to want to milk every single FPS out of it that I can,, isn't that the reason I bought the thing in the first place. Plus they hardly ever get close to their advertised velocities anyway with factory ammo, so every little bit helps. (When I was a kid my father used to tell me that God hated a coward, I finally realized he has even less use for a fool.) | |||
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That wasn't the point I was making, just that longer barrels means less muzzle blast meaning a more efficient burn. Why buy a magnum and chop the barrel 4" because it's compact. It's like buying a ferrari and installing a governor. It doesn't make much sense to me.
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I don't know much about balistics, velocities, powders, etc. I hunt no more than once a month and my hunting rifles are a 9,3x62 and a 22" 30-06. I have hunted quite a number of game mostly pigs, different kind deers, some african antelopes and some waterbuffs. The only thing that I know, is that I noticed a BIG difference in animal reaction (red deers & wild boars) when hitted with a 300 win mag I borrowed this year instead of my 30-06. It just flattened them. So I am not so sure that a 300 win mag with a 24 inches barrel is the same that a 30-06. I was so impressed that I am considering building one for myself using a Lothar Walther barrel in 25,5" in 300 win mag. If germans built them that long there must be some good reason.....  L | |||
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I was surprised reading this that the loss in velocity with decreasing barrel length was not as great as I had come to believe would be the case, especially with the so called overbore cases. My 308 Norma wears a 24" tube & is I believe a good compromise between handiness & velocity. I would rather loose a couple of inches of barrel & maybe go a slightly heavier barrel contour in the HOPE that a stiffer tube MIGHT equal better accuracy & aid offhand steadiness Steve. | |||
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I have a great liking for the .308 Win. I'm not gonna go into the whys and wherefores of how I started using the round because it's not relevant. I started out with a Remington 660 and gained a great deal of respect for the round. I was always a big fan of the 6.5 Mannlicher and had two of these beatiful little carbines until they were stolen back in the early 1970s. When Ruger came out with the little Stutzen in .308, I knew I had to have one. The price was a bit more than I could handle until I saw a used one in my local paper. The price was right so I gave the guy a call. It even had a 3x9 Redfield on it and sem to fit me to perfection. I didn't even haggle the price and bought it on the spot. I asked him why he was selling it so cheaply and he said the gun was not accurate. DAMN! Honesty. I said it didn't matter, I'd figure out something. it turns out the rifle is a one trick pony. A 165 gr. Speer Hot-core over 49.0 gr. of W-760 in Winchester brass is the only load that will shoot worth a damn in that rifle. Average group is 1.25" and velocity is 2550 FPS, no barn burner. FWIW, that same load in a Winchester M70 with 22" barrel is 2610 FPS, a whole 60 FPS more. I've taken 8 deer with that little Ruger 77, the closest shot about 35 feet and the longest 250 yards laser measured. The farthest any deer moved was maybe 30 to 40 feet and most dropped on the spot. Only one bullet has ever been recovered and that was from the 250 yard shot where the deer was facing me. FWIW, the longest shot I ever made with a .308 was with the Remmy 660, a 150 gr. Sierra over a stiff load of H-335; 427 paces witnessed. One of my hunting partners had wounded the deer and it was getting away. I will also be the first to admit it was a very lucky shot. As the discussion is on barrel lengths, if i were to build up a custom rifle in the .308 Win., I believe I would use the Steyr Mauser action I have on hand, a classic stock and 23" barrel. Why 23"? Hell, I dunno. Just to be different I suppose. I guess it all boils down to a case of whatever floats your boat. If someone wants a .300/378 Weatherby with a 16.5" barrel so that his game is shot and cooked at the same time, why in hell should I tell him he can't do it. None of my damn business anyway and I can always use a good laugh. Paul B. | |||
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I know that I consistantly got about 150 to 200 FPS more velocity in my rather extensive tests conducted some year ago when I shot out the original Win. barrel on my 300 H&H. I cut it back to 18 inches from 26 inches and chronographed it with various loads before I tossed it, then I repeated those same tests with the new 26 inch factory barrel. The results that I got were as stated above.. The problem with these test or any tests for that matter is there are so damn many varibles that results can vari dramatically and folks are inclined to believe they prove their point beyond all doubt and that may or may not be the case.. So save yourself the trouble and expense of trying to prove your right and I'm wrong or visa versa, and just do what you want as that is what most of us will ultimatly do anyway!!  and the end result in the field will be the same in all likelyhood.Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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My 300 win mag has a 25" barrel. My 300 ultra has a 26" barrel. My 300 win mag had a 26" barrel but I shot it out and so now it has a 25" barrel. | |||
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Curious on the charts with the 300 rum anyone would use 4895 for an example of not loosing velocity from a shorter tube. Try H1000 or RL 25. My 7mm mag gained alot more than 50 fps. How about some wind drift tables, cause drop is very easy to correct with a few clicks. | |||
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