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AC I like what you bring to the table. thanks. We all could use help in finding what works in the accuracy dept. I Might Be Tired From Hunting , But I Will Never Tire Of Hunting . | |||
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Follow through is very important how much is enough is the question. In a fast repeat shot situation very little is used. The biggest reason to teach follow through is not to develop bad habits like lifting the head, jerking the trigger. I was at an instructor class for shotguns, the instructor said I needed more follow through after I broke 10 clay birds in a row. I looked at him and said not if your breaking them. When I am shooting my bow I very much have to concentrate on follow through making sure I hold the pin on target. Because of no recoil, low velocity it is very easy to see the results of not having good follow through. | |||
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Good follow through is extremely important, no matter how fast or slow it is executed. I always explain it as a "snap shot view of what you just did". It can tell you if you have a good trigger squeeze and release, good position, good head alignment, good sight alignment, etc. A good follow through can show you what you are doing wrong if you pay attention. It will also allow you to place precision follow up shots in a timely manner. AC, you are a wealth of knowledge and I appreciate you sharing it with us. Proper application of basic marksmanship skills are the foundation of a good rifleman. Until you master those, you will often spray inconsistent and random shotgun type patterns without any clue as to what you are doing wrong. | |||
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 shootaway foundI Might Be Tired From Hunting , But I Will Never Tire Of Hunting . | |||
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I always wondered what Shootaway looked like.  Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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I'm glad you found the humor. I Might Be Tired From Hunting , But I Will Never Tire Of Hunting . | |||
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+1 Thank you AC NRA Endowment Life Member | |||
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This ^^^^^gentlemen is the only response anybody should ever see from Shootaway. just MHO.. He feeds on your attention like a cancer feeds on your health. | |||
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Anyone who has ever shot on a rifle team knows the importance of "calling his shot." When you're on the line, with the coach right behind you, watching through the scope, the first thing he does after the shot breaks is ask, "How did you call it" or words to that effect. The shooter has to be aware of exactly where his front sight was located with relation to the target at the moment his trigger breaks if the coach is going to be able to coach him effectively. A typical response might be, "That looked like a wide 9 at 5 o'clock." It is uncanny how precise an image a trained shooter can retain of his sight picture at the moment the round goes off. If the call and the location of the shot on the target don't agree, the coach knows that a sight correction may be called for. The next shot will establish the fact. Nothing is more conducive to good follow through than proper shot calling. If he is totally engrossed in concentrating on the front sight, to the point that the target is an out of focus blur, and the break of the trigger comes as somewhat of a surprise, then the shooter is not tensing his body to resist the recoil and when the recoil comes, he allows it to move his shoulder back in the line of least resistance. Even locked in tightly with a sling, shooting prone at 600 yards, where the bull can be completely obscured by the front sight, he is able to register just where the sight was when the shot broke, and the coach's sight adjustments depend on it. It is as natural as breathing for the experienced team shooter. | |||
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AC my friend thanks for this tip. I'll remember this the next time I shoot my 416 Rigby. You take care! "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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A few more comments on Follow-through. I recently watched an episode of "The Boddington Experience" with Craig Boddington. He had a short segment on accurate shooting, and explained the importance of follow-through. Here's another very experienced shooter and hunter that knows the value of follow-through. On a personal note, I shot registered Trap and Skeet competitions for about 20 years. I quickly learned the value of follow-through when shooting shotguns. Many years ago in one of Colorado's first muzzle loader deer seasons, I shot my largest ever mule deer. I was hunting near Maybell with a .45 caliber percussion Kentucky rifle that I had built from a CVA kit. The area was mostly sage brush and the weather was off and on drizzly rain. Two does and a huge buck jumped up from a large sage bush and started trotting away. They were less than 50 yds away, and I took an offhand shot at the buck. When I squeezed the trigger, the percussion cap went POP...pause...BANG. The drizzling rain had caused a hangfire. When the cloud of white smoke cleared I could see the two does running off, and the buck had gone down. I had been doing a lot of Trap shooting previously that summer and follow-through had become second nature to me. By practicing follow-through, I stayed tight on my rifle, was able to keep my sights on my target, and even with the delay of the hangfire, I was able to kill that buck. In 2005 I went on a buffalo hunt in Zimbabwe. The first morning there, we checked the zero of my rifles. I shot off the tailgate of my PH's truck at a paper target we set 100 yds away. I shot two shots with each rifle. My PH was smiling when he brought the target back. The two shots from my 7mm Rem mag were a half inch apart, 2" high, and the two shots from my .375 RUM were touching, 2" high. The cameraman who was filming hunts for this PH then commented that I was the only hunter that they had that year that kept his cheek on the stock after the shots. Follow through works, period. NRA Endowment Life Member | |||
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Thank you AC. Your wisdom, experience and class shine through. I often catch myself lifting my head to see when i should be doing as you suggest, no matter the recoil etc. I really need to concentrate on the basics and up my trigger time to become a better shooter and more effective hunter. Best wishes, Chris DRSS | |||
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Many years ago I was involved W/a local muzzle loader club in Southern Indiana. (the real kind W/bore sized lead bullets & traditional ignition) We had monthly shoots & I would almost always hang in there W/a few 3rd place scores until this same guy would show up just before the end & take his maximum 3 wins & bump me back out of placing. Around 1985, I built a flintlock rifle for my brother who lives in Pennsylvania. Low & behold, while shooting that flintlock, I placed in a couple of matches. A flintlock forces on to use good follow through as there is a slight delay from the stone striking the frizzen & the priming setting off the main charge. (if you have a delay from the priming going off & the main charge igniting, you have priming/flash hole issues) After missing a few easy shots @ deer W/my percussion rifle, I built myself a flintlock plains rifle. From then on, shooting my flintlock in competition, I almost always took my 3 prize maximum, often placing 1st. In that club there were no separate classes for percussion & flintlock & many matches were won by flint shooters. The real test was when, after many shots W/O knapping the flint, a dull flint would cause a misfire. If you were using good form, the rifle would remain steady. GOOGLE HOTLINK FIX FOR BLOCKED PHOTOBUCKET IMAGES https://chrome.google.com/webs...inkfix=1516144253810 | |||
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By doing so, you are practicing "follow through". GOOGLE HOTLINK FIX FOR BLOCKED PHOTOBUCKET IMAGES https://chrome.google.com/webs...inkfix=1516144253810 | |||
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Thank you AC for the excellent post; I have to work on making sure that my follow through is correct. It is too bad that that people like shootaway who are bad shooters and lousy writers choose to foul a good discussion with their verbal excrement. sputster | |||
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Hi Everyone, I come on here once in a while to learn, but will rarely add anything about things such as this topic, but...I think this discussion also needs a bit of a physics and geometry lesson as well. Being a mathematics (and the applied mathematics/physical piece too) I feel might be worthy here. Let's assume for a moment you are shooting off of a rest of some sort to minimize barrel movement. When the cartridge goes off, obviously we get a bang (action), the bullet leaves the cartridge and travels down the barrel (PART) of the reaction, and the barrel absorbs some of the explosion as well (the ANOTHER part of the reaction) and there is recoil (yet ANOTHER part of the reaction). No matter what one argues, that barrel moves and vibrates due to the powder exploding, along with the rest of the gun moving. THUS...as the bullet travels through the barrel, it is affected by the movement of the gun (whether it be barrel vibration, recoil, etc). We as shooters work to reduce this effect in various ways. Granted, the bullet is in the barrel a very very short amount of time, the movement of the gun is also happening at the same time... So...lets assume for a moment our rifle is 43" long (measured my A-bolt .30-06 for this Using a value given earlier in this thread, if that barrel moves .01", the change in angle from point of aim to new point of impact will only be roughly .0122346 degrees. (it continues obviously). Now..if we extend that angle for measurement at 100 yards, the amount the bullet will be off from aim point to actual bullet impact will be roughly 1.33 inches. So...compound that with a shooter holding/steadying the gun, you now add another variable...the effects of the shooter holding the gun. The shooter also now absorbs some of the energy of the cartridge going off, which can be argued removes some of the effect the gun movement has on the bullet as the human body absorbs some of the impact. BUT...our body is also moving while that bullet is traveling through barrel. It is physically impossible to be 100% still at any point in time. So...no matter how you argue, you as the shooter affect the bullet as it travels through the barrel. So..what does this mean for follow through? It means we need to be very aware of it, and practice good follow through. More than anything, a good follow through ensures the least amount of affect we have on the bullet's path while it is in the barrel, but it also ensures we perform the same shot sequence BEFORE the shot goes off as well. The golf analogy is a good one as well. Although we cannot visually see the time the golf club is in contact with the ball, the moment that club collides with the ball, the follow through has begun. That follow through affects the ball for the remainder of the ball's flight path. The shot from a gun physically...is no different. Steve Steve | |||
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Same with baseball...pitching and/or hitting follow through is total BS. You rock on buddy! Glad you are NOT in a forest near me! | |||
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Thank you VMS. A bit more on the golf analogy. One of the reasons follow-through is so important in golf is that the ball doesn't leave the face of the club at the exact instant the club first strikes it. The ball compresses a bit and, sometimes rubs across the face of the club too, before the ball and club separate. The club is still in motion while this small moment of contact is completed. To understand the effect of this, let's look at a right-handed guy with a slice in his drives. What causes the slice? Spin...the same thing that enables a pitcher to throw a curve, a sinker, or a screwball, depending on the direction he spins the ball. What is causing the spin of the golf ball? Well, in many cases it is because in the effort o increase the length of his drives, the golfer is swinging very hard and pulling the club too much with his left arm while gripping too loosely with his hands. That causes the club face to "open" while still in contact with the ball...in other words, the face tips outward, prolonging the contact and spinning the ball as it "slides" off the face of the club. What are the cures for a slice? Things which may help eliminate it are closing the golfer's stance, closing his grip, tightening his grip, and/or following through the strike with proper form (moving the club face forward square to the desired direction of ball travel until the ball has departed from the club). Golf is a lesson in force vectors, as well as a game. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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Good follow through is extremely important; especially on off hand. I used to approach the target from 6 o'clock and try to have the trigger break right as the front sight approached 6 o'clock. Noone (other than shootaway) can stay steady on the target offhand. I'd much rather shoot irons than a scope offhand -- again, contrary to Shootaway's contention. That said, last month, I dropped a running buffalo at about 50 yards offhand, with a scope -- the result is what my PH referred to as DID (dick in the dirt). Follow through was rather crucial. | |||
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Better yet-- lets avoid golf and go shoot something---- "The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane." Mark Twain TANSTAAFL www.savannagems.com A unique way to own a piece of Africa. DSC Life NRA Life | |||
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I just keep chuckling about minutes of moose boiler room! It is a provable fact that follow through, and its proper execution which enhances stability throughout the shot process, affects accuracy in a positive manner in all facets of shooting. Why anyone would argue the point is beyond me. You can say, "I don't actively follow through on my shots, but I am pleased with the level of accuracy I get." And the gallery will probably tell you that's fine, but if you want to shoot better here are some tips to practice. When you say, "It's a bunch of crap and doesn't matter" you are going to get blasted by provable facts. ____________________________ "Healthy is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die" "Men don't change. The only thing that should surprise a man in his life is the history he doesn't know." Harry Truman | |||
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I always try and squeeze the trigger to get a total surprise at the shot. If I am completely relaxed, the rifle hits my shoulder before I even know what happened. Follow through becomes a moot point when shooting completely relaxed and surprised at the shot. | |||
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Sorry AR Corey, but that is just not correct. Even if you are totally relaxed mentally and totally surprised, the rifle begins to move at the exact same instant the bullet begins to move (basic physics at work). During the time the bullet is moving through the barrel and the rifle is moving back (and up) you must follow through in the exact same way every time in order to achieve maximum, dependable accuracy. Surprise may keep you from jerking the trigger, but it does not alter even one tad what is happening while the bullet moves through the barrel (and even as the bullet moves out of reach of the muzzle blast after it has left the barrel). Nor will being 'totally' relaxed. If your muscles were totally relaxed, you wouldn't be holding anything. | |||
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Hello A.C. I am happy to see you are hanging in there! I always enjoy reading your posts and greatly appreciate your vast experiences. You are absolutely correct about follow through as it shows consistantcy in form. As someone else eluded, I too have often thought that if one could master accuracy shooting with a muzzle loader, a person "should" be able to do quite well with a conventional rifle for the biggest part. I recently had a 6.5X55 Svede built on a Spanish Mauser and scoped with a 4x Lyman All-American. As many here know, the lock-time on said action could more accurately be called "hang-time" (see Micheal Jordan). The rifle is well balanced, sleek, and quite accurate with my first round of loads. IOW I like it! I have been doing alot of dry-firing with this rifle aiming at various objects and noting the POA when the striker hits bottom. It didn't take me long to realize that if I didn't use good form AND "follow-through", I wasn't going to be very accurate with this rifle. Likewise, the better I get, practicing with this rifle, the better I shoot my other lesser "hang-time" rifles. Keep posting A.C. and share more of that saavy with us as long as you can! "The right to bear arms" insures your right to freedom, free speech, religion, your choice of doctors, etc. ....etc. ....etc.... -----------------------------------one trillion seconds = 31,709 years------------------- | |||
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Ironic you wrote this on the Accurate Reloading forum because that is the whole reason we reload; to find the sweet spot in the harmonic travel of the barrel as the bullet is travelling down the barrel. The barrel is actually oscillating not simply moving back and up. When the rifle recoils back into the shoulder, the bullet has already excited the barrel. Again, a surprise recoil on a bench makes follow through a difference of opinion. | |||
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Well Corey, while it is true the barrel oscillates during bullet travel through it, the effect is not nearly so great as that of the movement of the gun in recoil while the bullet is travelling through the barrel. And recoil movement starts at the same exact instant the bullet starts to move. It is also not correct to say that the bullet is gone before the rifle recoils into the shoulder. The recoil may not be completed by the time the bullet departs from the barrel, but it is already occurring, as are its effects. Not that whether the recoils forces it into the shooter's shoulder is greatly important. The recoil moves the rifle starting the instant the bullet starts to move. It is how follow-through helps the shooter uniformly handle all of that movement, in all the directions it takes, which is important. And the only, way the bullet could be gone from the barrel before the gun is pushed against the shooter's shoulder would be for him to not have the gun touching his shoulder when the gun is fired. Though it is correct that the gun may not have completed its recoil into the shoulder by the time the bullet leaves, all I can say is well DUH! Neither the bullet nor the rifle have completed their travels by that time. But if the rifle IS against the shooter's shoulder at the time the bullet STARTS to move, then there is no way the bullet can be gone before the recoil also pushes the gun against his shoulder. And how the shoulder "catches" that recoil and his arms hold the rifle (and whether any other part of his body relaxes, tenses, moves, or changes in any way) during all of the bullet travel down the barrel have a great deal to do with maximizing accuracy. Consistency of those things are all improved by follow-through. It is very simple. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. And how (and whether) the shooter follows though during that mutual reaction of launch system (gun) and projectile to each other is a large contributor to BEST accuracy. A man can fool himself but he can't fool the laws of physics. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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Followthrough is a Fundamental. Fundamentals are mandatory in marksmanship. There are a few things going on during Followthrough. 1. Nobody can hold a gun perfectly on target; there will always be some movement. The best shooters have smaller arcs of movement is all. You must know exactly where the gun was aimed at the instant of firing. This is called calling the shot. If your call is off, either the sights need adjusted or your Fundamentals need addressing. A properly called shot is as good as a center X ten as far as Marksmanship training is concerned. 2. Recoil and effects of recoil. You want the gun to travel the same way during each recoil. Ideally this would have the muzzle raise up and then drop right back on target. Try concentrating on the recoil pattern with a .22LR from the prone or benchrest position. If the recoil pattern is erratic, your position and Fundamentals need work. 3. Trigger Control: There are both opinions and gospel as far as proper Trigger Control during Followthrough. Most say to keep pulling the trigger as if the gun never fired; some top shooters have increased overtravel to accomodate this. Some semi-autos are hampered by continuing to pull. 4. Followthrough itself, continuing the act of shooting after the gun has fired. Unless there is a valid reason for rushing, as in timed rapid events, a second or better yet 2 seconds is a good training tool for continuing the act. By continuing the act, I am saying, maintaining, Aim, Hold Control, Trigger Control, and Breathing. *Bang*** one, two, then move. The worst detriment from improper Followthrough is raising the head off of the stock as soon as the shot is fired and also from reacting to recoil. Soon you will be reacting and/or raising the head before the shot is fired. I can't count how many times I have seen people react to recoil when the gun didn't even fire! Fundamentals are just that. All are necessary. PA Bear Hunter, NRA Benefactor | |||
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If you want to perfect your follow-through, shoot a flintlock for a month or so! | |||
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Alberta is 110% dead on correct...Several times in my life I have missed animals for lack of follow through, if thats what you want to call it, and on one ocassion two of the largest Mule Deer I have ever seen..I missed the first one and the one behind him as they topped a saddle and turned to look at me, then the second one did the same and thats the last I saw of them... I knew what I did and couldn't stop it from happening..I pulled the trigger and jerked my head up to see if I hit them..You simply cannot do that..I have seen many hunters do the same. When you test your rifle after misses and expect it to be off zero and its not, check out your shooting as to the head lift.. When you pull the trigger do not lift your head, keep looking through the scope until recoil goes up and the shot is finished, then look at your target..This is follow through, and its not crap!! Its a shooting mistake and its as hard to break as a flinch. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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The #1 rule in Golf is "Keep your head down"!! Its hard to hit a target if you dont stay on it. In shooting I think this may be more about discipline than anything. This is probably more about the shooter and his natural tendancies then the time it takes for the bullet to leave the bbl. AC's comments above about consistency sum it up pretty well. Keepin your head down in golf has some very real, demonstrable effects. If we took this discipline the other direction and began lifting from the shot at the shot, it is pretty easy to reckognize the potential for developing a very bad habit. Hence the purpose for holding the line. Thanks AC! AK-47 The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like. | |||
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I like it!  AK-47 The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like. | |||
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