I have determined that they don't make things like they used to! The older rifles that I own (FN, pre-64 model 70, Brno 21 and 22) are higher quality compared to new production.

My question is, what are your favorite old rifles? Which rifles are of higher quality and craftmanship in your opinion? I am beginning to notice these beautiful guns and wonder how many times I have passed guns not knowing what they were.

Sorry for the vague question but thanks,

ddj

Am one of those people with decent taste and a small pocketbook, but I am lucky enough to have a custom pre-64 M70 in .338 Win Mag and the Ottmar Guild rifle in 6mm Rem ... both are examples of well made rifles made very much better by genuine craftsmen. The Ottmar rifle is simply and astonishingly pretty.

The commercial bolt rifles I really like are the pre-64 M70s and commercial FN Mausers. The latter are sometimes available at quite reasonable prices.

Have been lucky enough to find three of those over the last couple of years. One was left with the original barrel in .270 Win and two actions were barreled to .376 Steyr and .376/.416 Steyr Improved.

One word, Swede's! I'm a surplus hound and almost all my hunting rigs are Swede's also.
5 on left.





This is the exception as far as "new" rifles.
CZ527 Varminter:

I know what you mean about wondering what you passed up on in the past. As a young deputy sheriff I used to wander thru the gun shows at the Astrodome looking for handguns and AR type weapons. I KNOW I passed up some cherry old rifles that I'd like to find at those prices now.

The older Mannlicher Schoenauer's represent some of the highest quality workmanship in a factory rifle to me.

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
The older Mannlicher Schoenauer's represent some of the highest quality workmanship in a factory rifle to me.

Terry

+1
Without a doubt.

Dear Trouthunterdj:

I am not a collector, so there are lots of rifles that I know nothing about. But the finest machining that I have seen on the pre-WWII and pre-WWI stuff resides in the military 1908 and 1909 Mausers made in Oberndorf and Berlin. The stocks are beautifully inletted, too.

I've owned lots of new factory rifles over the past 30 years, and the Sako's still seem very well made.

Great idea for a thread.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

Jpat, Thanks for the pictures.

TC1, do you have any pictures of a Mannlicher Schoenauer's?

I'm in my low 30's, so maybe its nostalgia or looking through rose colored glass, but it seems there was more pride in workmanship and less worry about the bottomline in the "good old days"

I enjoy seeing the pictures also.

Thanks

ddj

Are you speaking of form or function? Savage currently turns out some very unappealing and pedestrian rifles that shoot far more accurately than any pre-64 Model 70 ever did. But don't think for a minute I choose to own today's Savage over yesterday's M70.

Manufacturing and materials have improved, so it is much less expensive (in relative terms) to build a high-performing gun these days. High-performing, however, doesn't mean high quality. A certain portion of aesthetic appeal is something that can only develops as the firearm ages.

There are some brand new guns available today, particularly in double guns, that are as well made as anything turned out by our grandfathers. But they're going to be pricey, and you'll have to give them a few years (and perhaps discontinuance of production) for people to really begin to appreciate them.

Good points Stonecreek.

I find the fit, finish, grade of wood, ect. something that can't be found to the extent it was 40,50,60,70 years ago. It is true that materials may have improved but the mass manufactoring doesn't hold a candle to the hand work of days gone by.

ddj

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
Are you speaking of form or function? Savage currently turns out some very unappealing and pedestrian rifles that shoot far more accurately than any pre-64 Model 70 ever did. But don't think for a minute I choose to own today's Savage over yesterday's M70.

AMEN!!!

However, I don't think you need to go back too far to find quality. I collect A series Sakos and find their fit and finish (pun intended) to be exceptional.

Lou

i think its still a function os dollars. the machinery we have today can do things hand work can't imagine. I know some if it is very good, but today we can measure and deal with millionths of on inch. can't do that with a file. on the other hand the handwork that was done could only be done with much practice and many hours. we can still do that today - just look around and see what our top grade guns do today. but it all ends up being a function of how much $$

quote:

Originally posted by Yale:
Dear Trouthunterdj:

I am not a collector, so there are lots of rifles that I know nothing about. But the finest machining that I have seen on the pre-WWII and pre-WWI stuff resides in the military 1908 and 1909 Mausers made in Oberndorf and Berlin. The stocks are beautifully inletted, too.
---
Chris Bemis

Yes ,they were as were the original Mauser sporters.

I built several nice rifles on 1909's, though in retrospect,they were very nicely made in original trim.

For me, there is more to a gun than accuracy. Reliable, looks, nice wood, nostalgic, slick polished action, and fit are important to me. Alot of us think a gun that shoots 1 1/2" groups is poor and needs to head down the road. For a hunting rifle I'm happy with 1 1/2" groups.

I've never owned a Savage probably because they look like the ugly sister. I have always heard great things about their accuracy. Maybe one of these days I'll have to try one. I'll just have to shoot it when no one is around.

ddj

quote:

Originally posted by trouthunterdj:

TC1, do you have any pictures of a Mannlicher Schoenauer's?


Thanks

ddj

Unfortunatly you can't really get a feel of how special these rifles are from a picture. All the parts are case hardened then hand fitted and numbered. Then they are case hardened again. The parts glide across each other like no other rifle you'll ever use. The wood to metal fit is amazing for a factory rifle and all the screws are timed!

Don't be fooled by the Mil-Surp conversions. Some are nice but they just don't have the same level of finish as the factory sporters.

Here is a link with some very smart posters from day's past about these wonderful rifles.
M/S link

If you ever see one of these rifles at a gun show or pawn shop, ask the owner if you can cycle the bolt. It's an amazing experience.

IMO, Savage rifles represent value, not quality.

Terry

If I find a rifle that catches my eye I'll try and get it. Especially the Mausers. I had a 94 once that was smooth, it was one of my first if not the first rifle I bought, the tube magazine only held 5 rounds which was kinda cool. Don't know if that 94 came from the factory like that or a gunsmith made that 5 shot magazine. If a person likes a certain rifle then that is quality isn't it?

Myself I'll hear some talking about a Rifle and if it has a good reputation then I'll check it out and if I want it I'll buy it.

As I said, CZ!
http://cz-usa.com/products/view/cz-527-fs/

My favourites are Brno 21/22 series, another 22H arrived on my doorstep today, a 7x57 with VERY choice wood and I now have four of these. Another favourite is the rarer ZG-47, I have two and am dickering on another.

I have a minty Mannlicher-Schonauer carbine and had another long ago, these are nice, but, I end to prefer Mausers.

I have a genuine, original Type B "Obie" in 9.3x62, from 1937 and it is just an awesome old piece and shoots like a target rifle.

I have a few FNs and like them very much and am customizing two of them now.

I have had 36 P-64 Mod. 70s and still have 10, four of these are near-mint .338WM Alaskans and I LOVE these in good synthetic stocks, but, am no longer obsessed with Mod .70s...thank gawd!

The rifles from the 1930s to about 1960 were the BEST, IMHO and one can often find "beaters" to obtain actions and build pieces like TC1 shows us...and be broke all the time, but, what the hell, bests booze, gambling and playing golf!

i walk into a decent shop with rack after rack of used guns, remmies, winches, savages, tikkas, you name it, everything you can think of. i drift through them with only detatched intrest. one mauser or commercial FN in thier midst and i'm stuck there for ever. no other rifles seem to keep my intrest except maybe a pre 64 model 70.

Pre-64 M70 Featherweight (30-06):

No that I think about it, the Colt Sauer/Sauer 90s are probably the most over engineered and mechanically intricate rifles I have owned/handled. My machinist/gunsmith buddy says they're a mechanical masterpiece. I agree. Lou

The craftsmanship and hand work on older rifles can't be denied, but I still prefer the modern alloy receivers, through hardened bolt/lugs, Cro moly barrels (preferably cut rifled) than carburized face hardened actions, lugs that set back over time. I still think there are some fine pieces being produced today, and some artists are just amazing, but you do pay the price.

LOL, have you EVER seen a Brno with a "setback" of the lugs?????

I bought my first of these in 1965 and have examined and shot scores of them. I have NEVER seen the SLIGHTEST trace of ANY fatigue-induced malfunction or insufficient metal tempering, not once.

"I collect A series Sakos and find their fit and finish (pun intended) to be exceptional."

For those not in on the joke, that's "fit and Finnish"

I won't disagree with you on the A-series Sakos, Lou. But if you step back to the pre-1972 L-series Sakos you'll find a higher polish on the standard grades, and barrels and stocks that have a much more svelte shape to them. However, I've also seen a few pre-1972's with amateurish checkering and very plain-jane wood, even on Deluxes. The A-series didn't have the finely contoured stocks of the L-series, but the wood was consistently better and I've never seen a botch checkering job on one. Something's to be said for either (and I don't turn down a good deal on either, either -- no pun intended here, either.)

The sakos that I have (2 Vixens), I would definately classify as high quality guns.

I understand that there are alot of high quality beautiful rifles built today but the fact remains most of these guns are expensive. The average gun of the 40's and 50's was built to a higher qualit than the guns today. In my humble opinion.

ddj

quote:

Originally posted by Brad:
Pre-64 M70 Featherweight (30-06):

I would take this rig than anything turned out by Remington, Winchester, Savage, Ruger, or Kimber hands down.

ddj

quote:

Originally posted by trouthunterdj:
The sakos that I have (2 Vixens), I would definately classify as high quality guns.

I understand that there are alot of high quality beautiful rifles built today but the fact remains most of these guns are expensive. The average gun of the 40's and 50's was built to a higher qualit than the guns today. In my humble opinion.

ddj

Generally true but even then, they were expensive for the average Joe to buy. There were no "cheap" quality guns at any point in time. Some just seem cheap in today's used market.

Does anyone have information and pictures of Mauser sporting Rifles?

Are the Brno's similiar ro these?

Thanks again,

ddj

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
i think its still a function os dollars. the machinery we have today can do things hand work can't imagine. I know some if it is very good, but today we can measure and deal with millionths of on inch. can't do that with a file. on the other hand the handwork that was done could only be done with much practice and many hours. we can still do that today - just look around and see what our top grade guns do today. but it all ends up being a function of how much $$

Sorry, I had to reply.
TC is button rifling its' new bolt rifle on a 1940 Mossberg machine. I sell Surplus ammo to the guy that runs the barrels. So much for modern tech and precision.

pre64s can be poorly machined & out of true with dubious&patchy heatreat...in such original form,they are nothing to be greatly admired or desired by myself.
I would climb over a pile of p64s for an Brno 21H.

I just got another yesterday as I posted and with MINIMAL mods, you have about a PERFECT mountain rifle. It seems that most of these were sold to Africa, Sweden and Canada, they are not hard to find here and a nice one is about a grand Canuckbux.

You CAN import them and dealers here will help.

I have an older remington pump 22 I believe a model 21, I recently picked up a 1949 era FN commercial mauser, Model 12 Winchesters are nice, So are Browning Superposed. Oh well I'm getting into the wish list now. DW

Have some pre 64 Winchesters and are definitely classic rifles, but my favorite is the Browning Safari grades of early 60's vintage and higher grades for top quality and yet far under a true custom gun investment. Have two now and on the verge of getting another one even though I have to sell off some of my favorite "modern" guns. Stock design, fit and finish, checkering, stepped barrel, quality iron sights, excellent triggers, accurate, and overall heft and balance make them top choices for me. Minty ones are hard to come by for those that have them also think highly of them.
Another rifle I think is definitely quality is the Winchester or even the Browning version of the Model 71. Have a Browning version and excellent in all respects, but the ultimate is the Super Grade Model 71 Winchester. Pretty much hand built from butt to muzzle and it certainly shows. I would hate to venture the cost/price of producing those rifles in today's dollars. "So little done, so much yet to do...," and so little time left at my age. Think I'll just take them with me when I go!!

quote:

My question is, what are your favorite old rifles? Which rifles are of higher quality and craftmanship in your opinion? I am beginning to notice these beautiful guns and wonder how many times I have passed guns not knowing what they were.

The Mannlicher Schoenauer-the best made factory production sporting rifle ever made....

Define quality. I think my L-46's are high quality, old school. The way my LRPV shoots I would consider it quality, very accurate. Money being no object, some day I would love to own a K 95!

quote:

Define quality.

That opens up a can of worms

quote:

Originally posted by Dewey:
LOL, have you EVER seen a Brno with a "setback" of the lugs?????

I bought my first of these in 1965 and have examined and shot scores of them. I have NEVER seen the SLIGHTEST trace of ANY fatigue-induced malfunction or insufficient metal tempering, not once.

BRNO uses high carbon steel, they are not case hardened, 1965 is a far cry from 1898. But at least you got a good laugh at it. And one thing I would never call a stock BRNO is refined.

John

As others have said earlier in this post, the ZG 47:s are hard to beat.
In this thread you can see my "fine gun" and if you scroll down you can also see my "working rifle". Nothing much to say about the Zg really. It just works.
The working gun is made by a Swedish gunsmith, and it has been made to function, nothing fancy at all. But it works, ALL of the time.
A Husky 1640-action with the swing safety, Lotharbarrel, Recknagelsights and scopemount. Timneytrigger, Mac Millanstock and a fixed SoB scope.
I can basically find ammo for both rifles in a gasstation, they are in .30-06...
Funny thing about the ZG:s. I`ve had three of them. Two in -06 and the first one had serialnr. 04788 and this one 04778. This latest one is basically brand new, though made in -56.
It cost me about 400$. Hard to beat, huh?
http://www.jaktsnack.se/index.php?showtopic=16669

quote:

quote: And one thing I would never call a stock BRNO is refined.

John

I would.

Terry