I inherited my grandfather's Model 54J Shultz and Larsen bolt action in 7X61S&H, also known as 7X61 Ultra.

I have some used brass and dies with it but would like to find some new brass. An internet search found almost no brass available. I saw one article alluding to forming it from 7mm Rem Mag brass (sounds logical), but can I simply form 7X61 from 7MM Rem Mag by running it through the sizing die and then trimming to size? Should I trim it some first to make it easier to size down?

I'd like to hear from someone with experience with this or a similar operation. Any tips or tricks to forming?

Anyone out there shooting a 54J Shultz and Larsen? Best I can tell is they were made from 1953 to about 1961.

Thanks

GLC,

I'm not a 7x61 shooter but Graf&Sons shows brass on their web site. 100 pieces @ $80.70

Bob

Donnelly says it is 1/10" shorter than the 7RemMag.
Just pull the expander rod and run them thru the FL die. Trim, load and fireform.

Rich
DRSS

I always loved the 7x61. It's capacity is just about perfect for the 7mm. You should be able to simply run the 7mag brass into the 7x61 die and trim. .

7mm Weatherby brass can be sized and trimmed also. May be of a higher quality but pricier too.

Ray

I've used 375 H&H brass to make 30-338 brass, so I think 7mm Rem to 7x61 S&H should be easy. Just use Imperial Sizing Wax, it'll make it slick.

Also my Hornady fourth edition reloading book contains data for reloading the S&H.

GLC As several have mentioned you can resize 7mm Rem cases but you will collapse the shoulder on a few of them. If your plan is to shoot the rifle there is a case forming die from RCBS that works like a charm. If you need some load data send me a PM. Your S&L should be a great shooter.

Thanks for all the information. I'm going to reload some of the brass I have this weekend and hopefully shoot sometime next week. I have several books with load info to try.

Snowman-
I'll look into that forming die. Do you know who sells it, or is it a direct order item from RCBS?

Hi there lovely rifle, it deserves real proper head stamped Norma Brass, whom by the way it the company mainly responsible for the development of the round.

Don´t settle for less then the right cases, if you have issues finding it, then I will help you get it.

Best regards Chris

GLC I have the forming dies but I'm not at home so I can't provide the RCBS part # right now. If you contact RCBS ask for the 7x61 from 7mm rem mag forming set. I'm sure they would be able to help you. If you are just getting started IMR 4350 is hard to beat. I'm also working with RL22 and it shows promise with heavy bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by Husqvarna M98:
Hi there lovely rifle, it deserves real proper head stamped Norma Brass, whom by the way it the company mainly responsible for the development of the round.

Husq

Interesting. I thought the 7x61 S&H was originally a wildcat developed by Phil Sharpe and Richard Hart shortly after WW II. Norma didn't enter the picture until 1952 when they started making brass.

Ray

I have 140 once fired Norma cases and 40 once fired and deprimed Norma cases. I wanted to build myself a 7x61 but gave it up and will not get to it anymore. I bought the cases from a guy who did not reload and deprimed 40 of them for some reason. $80 the lot, shipping included.

I had a Schultz & Larsen 7x61 in the shop many years ago and it was stamped 1:10" twist near the barrel / action joint. The rifle would not shoot with anything but 120gr Sierra bullets. We found that the barrel was just over 1:11". Might be worthwhile to check yours.

I sorted and tumbled all the brass I found with the gun. I have about 150 cases and about 45 loaded rounds that were with the rifle. I went through what my grandfather had as far as bullets and he seemed to load a lot of 154 Hornady and some 160 SP Sierra. I know he hunted quite a bit and made several trips to Arizona, Wyoming, and Montana back in the 60's and shot a lot of animals. We have about 15 elk, mule deer, and whitetail heads of his around the house. I would guess that it will shoot the 154's and 160's pretty well since it looks like that was what he was using.

I plan on starting with H4350 and H4831 with 140 and 150 grain bullets. I'm thinking it would be fun to work up a load and shoot a PA whitetail with his rifle this year.

The rifle also has an old 4X Unertl Hawk scope on it.

Thanks again for the info.

GLC,
I happen to have 9 boxes of NORMA 7x61Super factory loads w/154 Hornady @ 3060fps. Will
sell for $25ea. or all for $200. Noticed you were from PA also so PM me if you are interested.

quote:

7x61 S&H

Chuck Hawks tells the story the american way.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/7x61_SH_Mag.htm

http://outdoorsdirectory.com/akforum/akshooting/65196.htm

A swede named Nils Kvale the father of the 358 and 308 Norma Mag cartridges aided and worked togheter with Sharp & Hart after their initial developement of the round to produce some of the better brass cases there are.

Norma was for a long time the exclusive producer of this cal of ammo.

The danish guys at Shultz and Larsen made the rifles to fit the rounds above and their precision and looks are widly famed here in Europe.

Not all good things are made stateside.

Best of luck to you all.

Chris

Went out to try it today. I had 25 rounds loaded with 150 Sierra Spitzer boat tails over 65.0 grains of H4831. This load is 2 grains under maximum. I also had one box of factory Norma 154 grain loads. I shot at 100 yards off a bench with a Hart rest and bag.

Out of 15 handloads shot, 12 suffered case failures, either necks breaking, cracking, or head separations.

Over the weekend I had sized, trimmed, and prepped all the brass that I had. I think the brass is just too old and brittle. I'm down to about 100 cases as many had cracked necks and others broke while sizing.

I also fired 7 rounds of the factory Norma. Grouping was pretty poor, three to four inches but no case failures at all.

The scope on the rifle currently is a known good Leupold 4X12 VXI model. I put this scope on for load testing.

At this point I'm thinking of rechambering to 7mm Rem Mag. I've read on other posts that this has been done with success and will speak to my gunsmith about it. It seems like the best way to go to continue shooting this rifle.

I appreciate all the offers for brass and ammo and will keep them in mind but the long term cost of shooting the 7X61 is pretty expensive compared to the much more common 7mm Rem Mag.

Some pics of the rifle and cases have been included. My camera is not the greatest so bear with me.

GLC Looking at the fired cases in your pictures. The case that is standing up does not look at all like the 7x61. It looks to me like that rifle has been re-chambered to a 7mm Rem Mag. I would suggest you do not fire any more rounds until you have that chamber checked. When the Norma 7x61 started to get scarce many simply had them re-chambered.I would suggest you could start by obtaining an empty unfired 7mm Rem case and see if it will chamber.

Snowman, already checked the 7 Rem Mag case in the chamber prior to firing. It will not chamber and is about .1 too long which is how much longer the 7 Rem case is over the S&H. This is definately a 7X61.

The new 7X61 Norma rounds I fired worked fine and did not distort or break.

Just a thought before you rechamber, try two things:
1 Check the bedding and torque on the screws.
2 Clean the bore with two or three applications of WipeOut. Fill the bore in the evening, leave overnight, clean with patches the next day. I had a friend who wanted to rebarrel his gun because it was shooting 4-5" groups who did this and went to shooting 1".

Group size is not my basic concern right now. I only tried one handload and a few factory rounds to this point. The fact that ammo and brass is so hard to come by for this caliber is the biggest problem. Also, the fact that the brass I have is so old and brittle is my main reason for wanting to re-chamber to a more readily available cartridge.

I scrubbed the bore over two days with Shooter's Choice copper solvent until I had the bore clean with no traces of blue on the patches.

Thanks for the info though.

Good shooting.

Huntingtons has Norma brand 7x61 S&H brass in stock for $1.00 per case.

7mm bullets are plentiful as is powder and primers.

You already have the dies.

If you do rechamber, consider the 7mm Weatherby Magnum.

I have a nagging thought abot the S&L rifle, doesn´t it lock up in the back of the bolt?

That might/will lead to some further stretching of the cases,wont it?

I was thinking about the separated cases!

Best regards Chris.

I sure hope you don't re-chamber that rifle. They are excellent, accurate, rifles when fed proper ammo. I have owned a half-dozen of them and all were good shooters. Most of mine particularly liked 160 gr, spitzer bullets.

I honestly don't understand your problem with brass. New 7 m/m Remington Mag brass is dirt cheap and is easy to make 7x61 out of. You will have to buy new brass anyway to shoot it as a 7 m/m Remington, so why bother paying for a rechamber job and at the same time decrease the value of the rifle? Just buy the brass, re-size & trim it to correct dimensions and then test some loads until you find something that produces good accuracy. You won't get quite the brass life you would from the "Super" cartridges from Norma, but you won't pay the cost of Norma, either.

My experience is that some of the data out there is a little hot and they tend to shoot better with less than hell-for-leather loads. They are rear-locking-lugged, so you will get some case stretch, which is why Norma brought out the "Super" brass. It is the same external dimensions, but somethat thinner and differently annealed to better spring back to original dimensions after firing.

I owned one when that occurred, and remember it well, so regardless what someone today tells you otherwise, that was their published reason at the time.

I'm not trying to be a know-it-all with you, or to tell you how to enjoy your rifle. Am just trying to convince you it really is a good (excellent!) rifle with the chamber it has, and is well worth the trouble of forming cases for.

Best wishes, and enjoy that sucker. They don't make very many factory rifles of that quality of steel and workmanship any more.

BTW, I've still got one in the vault.......)

quote:

Originally posted by Husqvarna M98:

quote:

7x61 S&H

Chuck Hawks tells the story the american way.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/7x61_SH_Mag.htm

http://outdoorsdirectory.com/akforum/akshooting/65196.htm

A swede named Nils Kvale the father of the 358 and 308 Norma Mag cartridges aided and worked togheter with Sharp & Hart after their initial developement of the round to produce some of the better brass cases there are.

Norma was for a long time the exclusive producer of this cal of ammo.

The danish guys at Shultz and Larsen made the rifles to fit the rounds above and their precision and looks are widly famed here in Europe.

Not all good things are made stateside.

Best of luck to you all.

Chris

Lets not try to re-write history.

Norma may have made the first commercial brass and Shultz and Larsen the first commercial rifles but development of the cartridge itself, at first a wildcat, has to be credited to Sharpe and Hart.

Chuck Hawkes is incorrect that the first belted case was called the S&H Super. Except for the very earliest wildcat cases that Phil Sharpe played with, the S&H was always belted. The Super 7x61 is a later refinement by Norma which thinned the case walls to get a little extra powder capacity.

Ray

Nils Kvale was also responsible for the development of serveral of Ray Weatherby's cartridges after reciving the draft "idea" from Mr Weatherby.

Let's call it a good example of bi-lateral cooperation

It is also reported back "in the day" that Phil Sharpe actually made his wildcat with relative minor changes to a cartridge of French origin he came across while serving as an ordnance/intelligence functionary in the ETO.

Whatever the origin of the cartridge is may not be as important to future historians as the preservation of existing original rifles is. Pretty good authorities in the field estimate that probably not much more than 3,000 "original" Shultz & Larsen sporting rifles were made & sold world-wide, including all calibers and all models.

Some day this lad's rifle will be worth beaucoup bucks, if he doesn't re-chamber it and thereby diminish its origininality.

call me about this i have the reamer etc. and dies 3 differen't sets for the 7 x 61 there were different dimension reamers made by a number of company's for this. my reamer is dated 1952 by the H&M company and has very little free bore (throat) if any. i have to cut the chamber with the reamer and i throat with a .280 rem reamer. this let's me set the 162 gr. hornady bullets out to 3.240. i made my brass from 7mm rem mag brass but it takes a while you need to push the brass up through the die a half turn at a time and use imperial sizing wax if you go too fast if will buckle or dimple the venturied shoulder i also had to trim the case necks quite a bit back after forming. other than that it shoots like on house on fire. i have 2 sets of rcbs dies both seem to be of the same dimension but i have a set of C&H dies that are somewhat different the cartridge comes out too long for my chamber with that die. maybe this dies will work on that rifle by the picture it seems like the chamber is longer that the ammo you have thus causing the end of the shell to blow off. kinda like as if you were shooting a .243 shell in a .308 chamber? just a thought?! mark.

I'm not convinced that "brittle brass" is the cause of your separated case heads!

The S&L action is very strong, but it may be a little "springy", due to the rear lockup. This would help explain those case head separations! When you make your cases from 7mm Rem. Mag. brass, you can accomodate them to the individual chamber, then monitor them closely to see if they indeed develop stretch after a couple of loadings. If so, then rechambering will not eliminate this, but the brass will be easier to get without having to resize it and cut it off....

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
It is also reported back "in the day" that Phil Sharpe actually made his wildcat with relative minor changes to a cartridge of French origin he came across while serving as an ordnance/intelligence functionary in the ETO.

Whatever the origin of the cartridge is may not be as important to future historians as the preservation of existing original rifles is. Pretty good authorities in the field estimate that probably not much more than 3,000 "original" Shultz & Larsen sporting rifles were made & sold world-wide, including all calibers and all models.

Some day this lad's rifle will be worth beaucoup bucks, if he doesn't re-chamber it and thereby diminish its origininality.

Ther vas produced about (not 100% excact but +-10%

3500 m54
490 m56
3000 m60
2600 m65
4000 m68

That covers the whole production of genuin huntingrifles with the rearlocking and 1 pcs boltbody

Thanks for your response, Jorgen. I was hoping you'd speak up, as you are one of the very few people who would know the true situation and figures.

If I add up what you listed correctly, that comes to a grand total of 10,990 rifles. That figure makes a lot more sense to me than the 3,000 number. Sure wish I could recall which source I read that in, but it was relatively recent....may have been one of de Haas', but I sure can't recall for sure.

One of the reasons I always had some inner doubts about it is that if the 3,000 number was accurate, over my lifetime I would have personally owned almost 1% of all of them ever made, and that's pretty hard to believe.

Still, I recall the person was a trusted authority (supposedly), so until you gave us the facts, I had to believe them.

Thanks again...am going to print your list out and put it in my archives for future reference.

None the less, I sure hope the young man does not alter his rifle. With 10,000-11,000 made, they are still not exactly common as dirt....and they were beautifully made.

Best wishes,

AC


Added edit..../ Jorgen, How about the Model 62? I just sold a Model 62 free rifle with the sights offset to the left. Were those considered a separate model, or are they considered part of the Model 60 run?

I haven't rechambered yet but have tried some more loads out of the rifle. With the old 7X61 S&H marked brass, I am getting quite a few broken cases. I have no idea how many times they've been fired and am sure that the brass is probably from the 60's and fired numerous times making it brittle.

I have one box of new 7X61 Super marked Norma ammo of which I have shot 15 rounds. I've now loaded those 15 rounds three times each with no breakage or significant stretching of cases.

Group size is still depressing, my best groups are about 2 1/2" at 100 yards off the bench with H4831 and 150 grain Sierra SBT's. Most groups are around 3" or so. I think it should do better.

I've found some articles in old loading books and on-line regarding the rear locking lugs of the S&L rifles. Most of the articles speculate about this being problem but conclude that the bolts were very closely fitted to the receiver and that the four rear lugs are adequate to handle the load. Other S&L's were apparently chanbered for the 308 Norma and 358 Norma magnums. The action is very nice, very smooth yet tightly machined. It is truly a rather unique action.

I'm not set on rechambering yet and may invest into some new brass despite the cost to experiment with the caliber some more to see what I can get it to do. I'm going to try some heavier bullets, 160's and 175's to see what they do.

Thanks for the info and comments. The forum is always interesting and informative.

Hi AC
The total of the Rearlocking huntingrifles is apx. 13000 - 14000
Ther were some prior models with 4 rearlugs, but the bolt was asembled of 2 mainparts, so that the cylindrical front was not rotating.

The free rifles was produced in mainly 3 versions
The model 37(?)
The m54(without the letter J)
The model 62

The first was build on base of the2 piece 4 rearlug model, with a thicker reciever
The m54 and m62 were based on the idea of m54j and the m60/m65, also with thick reciever
The total number of freerifles i guess is less than 2000.

After stopping the m68 production, ther were at the Otterup plant build some hundreds of Schultz&Larsen based on a civil m98 version.
The last Otterup Huntingrifle was apx 300 model 100DL Their own reciever. Those were produced as a final "death shake" just before i bought the company ot the brink of bankrupcy.


After some years of analyzing and designing, and investing in modern high teck multi mashinery, the current production is about 2000 model M97-Dl and "Classic" pr year.
When latest aquired equipnent is implemented the production will reacg 5000 - 8000/year

All produced entirely in house. Only containing

CrMo cutrifled barrels
Recivers, bolts and triggers etc all milled and turned out of solid bars.
Walnut stock, or Laminated

So bacicaly only STEEL AND WOOD
no plastic or alu

Hi aqain, Jorgen-

Thanks for the added information.

I always really liked the thick-walled free rifles in particular. Bought 4 at once, one time...a .243, a .308, a .30-06, and a 6.5x55. Those have all gone to some fairly well known American shooters, such as Mitch Maxberry.

Right now the one I am keeping for myself is a M54 free rifle in .30-06. I believe it one of the earlier ones, as the ejection port is dead-center at "12-o'clock"...doesn't actually eject the fired case, just stands it straight up on its base when the bolt is opened, so it can easily be plucked out with the fingers.

I wish you luck with your current S&L endeavor. Wish they were available here...

GLC - While I am late to this discussion, I do have modest experience loading for the 7x61 S&H. As posters above have said more than once, it's a good cartridge, well worth the work to get it shooting.

That said, here are a few observations: First, you may have noticed that new, unfired Norma brass - factory loaded or empty - looks considerably different from fired cases. Unfired brass is 61mm long alright, but is substantially shorter and smaller in the shoulder. I have new brass and loaded cartridges from the early 1950's to the present. All are short in the base - shoulder dimension, but cases marked "Super" are the worst, being .05" or so short compared to the fired brass from my rifle. This brass has to stretch a great deal when fired for the first time.

If precautions aren't taken to minimize stretching, I'd expect case life to be very short, with head separations a risk after only a few reloadings. I noticed this only after two-thirds my once-fired brass showed the tell-tale bright line above the belt and went looking for the reason. Fire-forming the new brass with a moderate load of 4895, bullet seated to jam the lands, seems to minimize the problem, but does not eliminate it entirely. Likely your Schultz & Larsen has freebore, however, so jamming the lands might not be possible. Alternatively, expanding necks of new cases to .30 or .338 then forming a new 'shoulder' by sizing to a slight resistance fit in your chamber might work.

(For an interesting discussion about why Norma 7x61 brass might be made the way it is, see this old thread - read all posts by 'systeme98' [Tom Burgess] on the 12th and 13th of May. Master metalsmith Burgess has forgotten more about rifles than most of us will ever know.)

Second, almost all 7x61 sizer dies I've seen have been quite short in the base-shoulder dimension. If fired cases are sized with the die screwed all the way down to the shellholder, they will almost certainly be too short for the chamber once again. The usual recommendation is to run in the die short of the shellholder, sizing the case only enough to let the bolt close with slight interference (plus maybe +.002 more for hunting loads).

Finally, I have had difficulty forming 7x61 brass from other parent cartridges. The problem has been thick necks in the reformed brass requiring both turning and reaming to get the 'donut' out of the neck/shoulder junction. I have tried 7mm RMag, 338 Win and 300 Win cases. The only brass not yielding thick necks after forming was a lot of 20 year-old, several times fired 7mm RMag. Others can do as they like, but for me life is too short for turning and reaming cases for a hunting rifle.

In this connection, I have the RCBS die set for forming 7x61 from 338 and 300 Win. Ideally a line reamer die should accompany this set, but is not present. Lengthy correspondence with both Buzz Huntington (vendor of the forming dies) and RCBS determined that a line reamer for 7x61 is not available. So, even with the forming dies it's back to some combination of turning and reaming with conventional (Wilson, Forester, etc.) tools.

Actually, if forming from 7mm RMag parent brass, the specialized (and expensive) forming dies aren't really needed. Per comments by other posters above, just use your FL sizer absent the expander/decapper plug. I have not tried 264 Win brass, which might not require neck thinning/donut removal. Be careful.

Now, for what it's worth, my rifle is a custom sporter of about 1960 vintage, having a chamber made with H&M reamers and throater (I have the reamers). I have never owned or fired a Schultz & Larsen rifle, so will defer to others' comments regarding characteristics unique to these rifles.

Wow, that's quite a bit of info Meplat, thank you.

I have noticed that the Super brass does have a different shoulder than the factory S&H chamber and brass has. My Super brass starts as a rather straight angle at the neck then blows out to the more rounded Weatherby kind of radius after fireing.

I have tried to partial size and neck size the cases but am still having a tough time and loosing a lot of brass. I'd say I'm loosing 2-3 out of 10 pieces at this point with most cracking or breaking at the neck/shoulder with a few case head separations.

I was really hoping to be able to shoot this rifle quite a bit and maybe go hunting with it, but don't really think its going to fly. Groups so far have been dismal and brass life and availablility is pretty poor.

I have two 7mm Rem mags (A Sendero and a BDL- both sub-MOA shooters) and about 22 years reloading experience but have never had this much trouble with brass and groups. I'm thinking that I'll just keep the rifle around and shoot it infrequently for fun as is.

Thanks again.

Most of my 7x61 reloads were loaded and shot before the "Super" brass ever came into being.

I did go down to the shop and check my records, though, just a few minutes ago. I found that my favourite load in Super brass from all those years ago was 65 grs. H-4831 below the 160 gr. Speer bullet. It could, according to my records, be counted on to shoot inside 1-1/2" at 100 yards from all of my original Shultz & Larsen 7x61 rifles I had over the years. Not a "tack-driver" load perhaps, but certainly adequate for hunting.

My starting load was 63 grains of the same powder with the same bullet. A note next to the 65 grain load in my books says "Seems to have authority on large game." I did not find my chrono notes from that era, so don't know what the velocity was, but if it struck with authority on game, that was enough for me.

I NEVER, BTW, had a particular problem with brass life. I usually junk belted magnum brass of any chambering in any rifle after 3-to-5 reloads anyway...at least any I am going to use on a hunt. I am not sure that is necessary, but in the bush of northern Canada where it could be 250 miles or more to the nearest ammo purveyor, it never seemed like a good plan to me to go cheap on the brass. So, I just bought or made more.

As far as inside neck-reaming brass, it is not difficult. Wilson will make you an inside reamer of any diameter you want, for little money. They have most standard diameters in stock for even less money. That, of course, is not really necessary, as it is also possible to outside neck turn brass to your desired neck-wall thickness with just about any neck-turner, so long as you have a 7 m/m pilot.

Hope it all works out for you and you find it enjoyable to shoot....

AC

Meplat brings up a good point about dies that may be overworking brass.That could cause case head separation. I make a point of not pushing the shoulder back on my brass and have had no more trouble with 7x61 brass than I have with any other belted brass. I also make a point of annealing the case necks every 5 firing/reloading cycles. GLC Any chance you could post another picture of some of the cases that separated and say a new case. In your previous post the picture of the one case standing appears much fuller (almost no taper )than the 7x61 normally appears. You mentioned you tried chambering a 7mm Rem case and it would not chamber. Have you tried chambering a 7mm Weatherby case ? The way the standing case ruptured down the side makes me think that chamber has been altered.

Check the twist in the barrel of your S & L. Most early ones had a 1/14 twist and were intended to be used with lighter bullets. My M68DL is marked 1/10 and handles the heavy bullets well and is a sub MOA rifle with no alterations to bedding or any where else. My guess is that European makers had in mind a long range cartridge for small animals like chamois and didn't consider use of heavier bullets until N.A. buyers or hunters who went to Africa pointed out their needs.

Chamber dimensions vary widely between S & L rifles and North American gunsmith made rifles. Off the shelf RCBS sizing and forming dies would not produce cases that would chamber in my 68DL. RCBS replaced those dies with dies specific to cases fired in my rifle. Works fine now.

My preference for brass for case forming is 300 Win mag. but that is because the people I hunt with use 7 Rem mag and the idea is to avoid any confusion in camp. Use the newest brass you can find so there is no question of age hardeneing and need for annealing.

A small ring is formed at the base of the neck when forming these cases. I fire form using a light cast bullet and then ream the ring out. The cast bullet does not seat to ring in the case so that is not a factor for initial firing.