quote:

You're talking absolute BS re "Your maximum safe load is over the CIP maximum pressure."

Jagter,



Did you pressure test all your max loads that you hint about?
If so, share the pressure level with us and state the pressure level attained.
I tested the 9,3x62 as it is of interest to me.
I made the effort as a 3-man team to have it tested by a Lab.
No amount of tap dancing on this one will convince me otherwise.
Nor will derogatory remarks such as "my little brain" support your incorrect view.

Warrior

/

Accuracy is number one in taking down any animal with any Cal. That stated I do not get why guys insist on pushing the envelope(my guess, it's not them dying slowly in sever pain). There are several Cal.s on the market that will get the job done without recoil concerns ie 30-06, 308, list goes. The larger Cal, more gr, more damage, more room for error. In my experence guys who can't be bothered to get a second rifle are the same guys who can't be bothered to go to the range and the whole accuracy thing is just to argue about. You know the guy who say "I'm very accurate I hit that 4X8 pilewood 2 out 3 times".

Warrior,

There is nothing "derogatory" in what I've said.
If the weakest link in the whole firing exercise of a rifle is the brass case (sincerely hope you agree with that!), then clearly one doesn't need lab pressure tests to tell you the pressure is not excessive if the same brass cases can be reloaded nine times, still without any signs whatsoever on them of any defects.

Many members on AR who reload would agree 100% with this statement.

Now surely, if you still classify that as 'tap dancing', you could suffer from a serious Torricellian vacuum sindrome somewhere where it matters most!

Mr. Warrior seems like a nice fellow I do not always agree with him or the gentlemen that seem bent on harrassing him.

But you SA guys sure have screwed up a fairly interesting thread this is not constructive to a good discussion.

Jagter,

The brass is indeed the weakest link in the chain; that is not questioned nor the issue.

The point that I make is that you cannot just rely on the brass to tell you that you did not exceed the CIP P-max. Can there be doubts about this?

There are valid reasons why CIP published max pressures as an industry standard.

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by Yale:
Ladies and Gentlemen:

I am curious as to your experience both positive and negative when using 6.5 caliber cartridges on game larger than deer, such as elk, moose and bear. Also, I would like to know what cartridges, bullets and velocities produced the best results for you on this larger size game.

I used to have a 6.5-06, but did not have it long enough to kill anything with it.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

In 1994 I killed a Spike Elk & Mullie less than 4hrs a part in Colorado with a Ruger M77.270 and Federal 150gr NP.

In 1995 I killed my Moose in Canada with a Ruger M77 6.5mmSwede and Norma 156gr "Alaska" ammo. Also killed a Black Bear with a Win 94 .30-30 Carbine and Federal 170gr NP. Also killed White Wolf with Ruger M77.270 and Federal 150gr NP..

quote:

Originally posted by Rebel Hog:
In 1994 I killed a Spike Elk & Mullie less than 4hrs a part in Colorado with a Ruger M77.270 and Federal 150gr NP.

In 1995 I killed my Moose in Canada with a Ruger M77 6.5mmSwede and Norma 156gr "Alaska" ammo. Also killed a Black Bear with a Win 94 .30-30 Carbine and Federal 170gr NP. Also killed White Wolf with Ruger M77.270 and Federal 150gr NP..

Aw Jeez!! Ya went and let the cat out of the bag!! Every body figures you have to pack a super thumping magnum to kill a moose!
I've been talking to a few guides, that need guns cleaned, fixed etc, and they have the same story : "If the hunters would show up with their 270's & '06's with good bullets, we'd have to track the moose less." The jist of the rest of the story is "Place the shot well with a good bullet and you'll have a happy hunt."

quote:

Originally posted by .366torque:

quote:

Originally posted by Rebel Hog:
In 1994 I killed a Spike Elk & Mullie less than 4hrs a part in Colorado with a Ruger M77.270 and Federal 150gr NP.

In 1995 I killed my Moose in Canada with a Ruger M77 6.5mmSwede and Norma 156gr "Alaska" ammo. Also killed a Black Bear with a Win 94 .30-30 Carbine and Federal 170gr NP. Also killed White Wolf with Ruger M77.270 and Federal 150gr NP..

Aw Jeez!! Ya went and let the cat out of the bag!! Every body figures you have to pack a super thumping magnum to kill a moose!
I've been talking to a few guides, that need guns cleaned, fixed etc, and they have the same story : "If the hunters would show up with their 270's & '06's with good bullets, we'd have to track the moose less." The jist of the rest of the story is "Place the shot well with a good bullet and you'll have a happy hunt."

+ 1

+2

quote:

Warrior said: There are valid reasons why CIP published max pressures as an industry standard.

This begs the question why CIP and SAAMI don't always agree on what that maximum should be - some samples below.

Cal - PSI
223 CIP 62366
223 SAAMI 55000

7x57 CIP 56565
7X57 SAAMI 51000

8X57 CIP 56565
8X57 SAAMI 35000

30-30 WIN CIP 46412
30-30 WIN SAAMI 42000

303 BR CIP 53939
303 BR SAAMI 49000

[/

Gerard,

Thus two different measuring sticks.

It just came to mind, perhaps there is room for yet another institution where we could only pick some of the CIP specs that suit us, reject some parameters and make a few additional specifications on things that we would like to see in it. Then we start a quiet ballistic revolution and lobby a following away from SAAMI and CIP.

Warrior

quote:

Two different measuring methods

The results are given in PSI for both. If two different measuring methods come up with measurements that differ that widely, given the same unit of measurement, there is something wrong with the way someone is measuring or the equipment they are using to obtain the results. Not likely.

Example - If I use an optical system to set the tool offsets on a CNC lathe and someone else uses a digital vernier, I would expect the results to differ, but not by the percentage reflected in the PSI numbers I gave above. If I measure the speed of a batch of ammunition with two different methods it would be closer than the CIP/SAAMI example, otherwise I would reject the result and start figuring which is the wrong method.

So what is the reason?

Warrior,
Your cogent and well thought out response is noted.

Apparantly the general consenses is that if you use a proper bullet and place the shot in the right spot the 6.5 is a good elk rifle...

By that criteria, so is the 30-30 or even the 25-35 Win. both of which I have shot elk with successfully...however, that does not mean these are good elk rounds, the 6.5, 30-30 and 25-35 will limit your ability to get your elk, you can depend on that..

Today I use a .338 with 300 gr. Woodliehs or a 375 with 300 gr. Woodleighs and I don't have limits..

Hunting elk anywhere but on the internet today means you will probably only get one, perhaps two windows of opertunity for a shot in one season, you had better be able to capitlize on that opertunity and make the kill....

I'm with Ray. Want no regrets after the season is over. I think the 6.5s earned their stripes hunting with hounds. Not the same thing at all as what I do.

/

Proof test differences:

Under SAAMI proof test procedures, for bottlenecked cases the center of the transducer is located .175" behind the shoulder of the case for large diameter (.250") transducers and .150" for small diameter (.194") transducers. For straight cases the center of the transducer is located one-half of the transducer diameter plus .005" behind the base of the seated bullet. Small transducers are used when the case diameter at the point of measurement is less than .35".

Under C.I.P. proof test standards a drilled case is used and the piezo measuring device (transducer) will be positioned at a distance of 25 mm from the breech face when the length of the cartridge case permits that, including limits. When the length of the cartridge case is to short, pressure measurement will take place at a cartridge specific defined shorter distance from the breech face depending on the dimensions of the case.

The difference in the location of the pressure measurement gives different results than the CIP standard.

Warrior

/

Thanks Alf,
It is interesting to note that the calibers below all have the SAAMI maximums well over the CIP maximum numbers.

22-250 CIP 58740
22-250 SAAMI 65000 (+ 11%)

6MM REM CIP 62366
6MM REM SAAMI 65000 (+ 10%)

270 WIN CIP 62366
270 WIN SAAMI 65000 (+10%)

Makes you wonder whether they have the answers and if one must look to a more reliable method.

quote:

Your maximum safe load is over the CIP maximum pressure.

quote:

The difference in the location of the pressure measurement gives different results than the CIP standard.

/

Alf wrote:

quote:

So what do we have that is simple to indicate where we are going if we do not have access to a fancy measuring device ?

Exactly this:

quote:

If the weakest link in the whole firing exercise of a rifle is the brass case ("The brass is indeed the weakest link in the chain" - even Warrior agrees to that!), then clearly one doesn't need lab pressure tests to tell you the pressure is not excessive if the same brass cases can be reloaded nine times, still without any signs whatsoever on them of any defects.

Thanks for all the rest Alf, perhaps one day we ordinary mortals may also have more sophisticated measuring equipment to do what we now play safe with, much better or warp up to the next high bullet speed and more efficient terminal ballistic era in the gun world!

Exit side up

quote:

Originally posted by tmc: In fact, I think most guys would be better off hunting elk with a 6.5 than the 300 and 338 mags that they can't hit their ARSE with. There is a pile of guys that category.

TMc

Yup, you can say that again. As much a people kid themselves, they cannot shoot these high recoiling guns accurately past 200 yards. You hear stories all the time about the guy and his trusty .338 pounding through an elk's shoulders and dropping it like a stone. I fail to believe they were not aiming at the lungs.

20 years ago, I would be hesitant to take a 6.5 or .277 bullet that loses half its weight on an elk or moose hunt but todays bullets are exceptionally accurate and retain all their weight. A modern 140 grain bullet out of a flat shooting cartridge is good out to 350 yards on any elk.

Cor

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Apparantly the general consenses is that if you use a proper bullet and place the shot in the right spot the 6.5 is a good elk rifle...

By that criteria, so is the 30-30 or even the 25-35 Win.

Elk can be hunted both short and long range, the 30-30 or 25-35 can not be considered long range choices. Placing the shot in the right spot is achievable with a flat shooting cartridge at long range.

quote:

Today I use a .338 with 300 gr. Woodliehs or a 375 with 300 gr. Woodleighs and I don't have limits..

Limits on the amount of recoil you can endure or limits on how far you can shoot those guns accurately?

I've got a table showing the statistics for moose killed in Sweden between 90 and 97, by caliber showing average range and distance the animal moved after the first shot. Near all swedish elks were killed between 50 and 6o yards. I can't figure out how to load the table in format so I'll summarize. 31% or 1,938 were killed with 30'06, 28% or 1,717 killed with 6.5x55 and 15% or 943 killed with .308. The samples are small but the only 4% or 265 were killed with the .375 H&H and they ran about 1/3 less far at 30 yards on average after being shot than the other three calibers which averaged 40 yards. Mabybe my tech expert/wife can help me load it later.

SwedishMooseStats

This location should show the table.

Gidday holzauge,

Well them facts say it all. We can piss and fart all we like but I think all those dead animals tell a pretty convincing story. Shot placement first and then shot placement second and in third place shot placement very distantly followed by bullet weight.

Thirty yards or forty yards travelled after the shot is neither here nor there in the open and in the thick stuff it is still a lost beast if you have no tracking skills or no dog.

Why do some insist on seeing how big a rifle they can use to do a job that can easily be done by a more appropriate smaller cartridge.

Happy Hunting

Hamish

Hamish, A lot of the places one might shoot a moose in Sweden are pretty open. But, sometimes finding the animal isn't the hard part. I've never hunted moose but I have had some experience dragging whitetail across salt marshes and out of greenthorn or rambling rose thickets in Virginia in places so steep a goat wouldn't go...Ooooh ugly flashbacks of my boots being sucked off by black ooze that stains like ink or being slowly skinned alive amid a cloud of mosquitoes...I should think recovering a large Swedish moose from a waist-deep ice-water bog would be similarly memorable.