I want to work up self defense and deer loads for my various 308's with a bonded 150 grain. Will use it in gas guns (self defense) and precision bolt guns. In either case, 400 yards and under, usually much closer.

Do any of you guys have a strong preference for Nosler or Hornady bonded bullets in this weight range?

I would prefer good expanded frontal area over fragmentation or extreme penetration.

Thanks for any input.

Andy

I prefer accubonds and I've used the interbond a number of times.I personally think the accubond is a better constructed bullet and I've used Nosler 2nds that were in better shape then what hornady passes off as firsts.

quote:

Originally posted by Andy:
I would prefer good expanded frontal area over fragmentation or extreme penetration.

I personally prefer the AccuBond, but if expansion is more important to you than penetration, the Interbond might just be the right one.

The AccuBond works a bit like the Nosler Partition, it looses about 40% of its weight, and by doing so keeps frontal area comparatively small - providing good penetration. The Interbond expands and sticks together - even to the point where I think it sometimes almost over expands.

Here are a couple of pictures of 154 grs Interbonds recovered from a roe - shot out of a 7x64 at about 2800 fps muzzle velocity, impact range less than 100 yds.





- mike

quote:

Originally posted by mho:

I would prefer good expanded frontal area over fragmentation or extreme penetration.

quote:

Originally posted by Andy:

if expansion is more important to you than penetration, the Interbond might just be the right one.

The AccuBond works a bit like the Nosler Partition, it looses about 40% of its weight, and by doing so keeps frontal area comparatively small - providing good penetration. The Interbond expands and sticks together - even to the point where I think it sometimes almost over expands.






- mike

Interbond for sure.

For "self-defense" with a .308? Well, if your assailant is wearing 8 layers of Kelvar, then maybe you need to be concerned about bullet weight and construction. Offhand, I can't name a 150/308 bullet that won't work just fine for "self-defense".

But it's good to know that you don't anticipate the need to defend yourself if your assailant is over 400 yards distant. It is indeed wise to wait until he gets a bit closer; and if he is going the other direction, you may have legal entanglements to address if you attempt to "defend" yourself at nearly a quarter mile against an adversary headed away from you.

As to deer, about any .308/150 will do as well as another. What counts is how accurate it is in your "various .308's". That may vary somewhat unpredictably from one individual gun to another.

My first question would be, How close are your neighbors?

If you live in any kind of urban area, I'd consider the 125gr ballistic tip. It would be devistating on any close range target, and less likely to shoot through every house in the neighbor hood.

If you live in a rural area, and have a 400 yard field of fire out of your front and back doors, the 150gr Accubond should give you great flexability for a varity of hunting and defense scenerios.

Thanks everyone for input.

Self defense; my nearest neighbor is 760 yards away and he shoots an old .303!!!

I wanted a bonded .308 for "self defense" due to their superior penetration of auto windshields. (See various FBI and IWBA tests).

I have used the 125 grain Ballistic Tip at 2900 fps in my gas guns and it recoils about like a reduce 150 grain load alot of tactical competitors use (150 at 2600 fps). It has similar ballistic drop to a 150 BT at 2800 fps.

Were those expanded pictures of the 7 mm?

quote:

Self defense; my nearest neighbor is 760 yards away and he shoots an old .303!!!

I wanted a bonded .308 for "self defense" due to their superior penetration of auto windshields.

Andy, for your scenerio where you are looking for performance on game, around vehicles and in open country, I'd consider the 150 Accubond. Of those mentioned, I'd be most comfortable with their barrier penetration. I've had very good results on game, and it's easy to get the shoot well.

In my L1A1, I shoot the 150gr BT/AB with a max load of BL(c)2 (equivelant), Winchester brass, and a CCI bench rest primer. POI is very close to the 150gr Mil-spec FMJ ammo, so it's a magazine change for alternate capabilities.

Since my neighbors are a little closer then your, the 125br BT around 3200 is next on my load list for that rifle. At that velocity I would expect them to disipate most of their energy on first contact with a foriegn object.

Antelope,

Thanks for input. I shoot a 160 grain accubond in my 7mm remington mag, 3070 fps from 26 inch barrel with RL25.

I also use a 165 grain ballistic tip with max load of ballc2 in two of my remington bull barrel 308's and my sr-25. It is about 100 fps too hot in my m-1a.

I will try the 150 w blc-2 in my Steyr built FN LAR, which is my go to for self defense and fun shooter. Glad to hear it co-locates with ball ammo. I just shot up the last of my very old 150 grain nosler solid base soft points, which made 2900 fps with a case full of 4895 and winchester brass from a 16 inch barrel scout rifle (remington mod 600) that Jeff Cooper's gunsmith put together for me many, many years ago. It was a fire starter at night. Really needed a flash hider, but Ive shot thousands of them with that load. It hammered the gas guns so it was for bolt action only.

I have tried the 50 grain plus winchester 748 load with 125 grain nosler but it required a gas port change on my FN so I dropped down to where it would lock back bolt at same setting as ball ammo. I think it still made over 3000 fps.

I got some of the new 130 grain Federal OTM barrier blind ammo the other day and it is supposed to be over 2900 fps from 17 inch barrel. It must be factory rejects from the military contract as it only does 4-5 inch groups at 100. Ive purchased belted 762 ammo that was more accurate, and that is why I got to thinking about rolling my own with the bonded 150's.

Andy

Glad to help Andy.

Hopefully you never need to use for anything other then putting a few of those nice Oregon Mule deer into the freezer.

quote:

I wanted a bonded .308 for "self defense" due to their superior penetration of auto windshields. (See various FBI and IWBA tests).

You might want to consult a knowledgable attorney prior to "self-defending" by shooting at someone through an automobile windshield.

quote:

Since my neighbors are a little closer then your, the 125br BT around 3200 is next on my load list for that rifle. At that velocity I would expect them to disipate most of their energy on first contact with a foriegn object.

Don't count on it. Despite its rather frangible core, the Ballistic Tip uses a solid base design. The hunk of jacket material which makes up this solid base provides unexpectedly deep penetration (even with the core missing). Both the relatively informal tests I've personally conducted and more comprehensive pentration tests other have published indicate that the Ballistic Tip usually exhibits total penetration greater than a number of conventinal cup-and-core bullets of the same weight. Even if it is only the solid base with the jagged jacket still attached which penetrates the wall, window, car door, etc., it can be lethal. I killed a deer once with only the bullet's jacket which pentrated the first deer and dropped the second deer in its tracks by striking its cervical column.

You might want to explore the Speer TNT as a shallower-penetrating alternative, but depending on a bullet not to penetrate is a rather weak fail-safe to begin with.

Over the years I have done a fair amount of penetration testing on glass of all kinds, vehicle bodies, building walls, etc.

Ballsitic Tips do a lot better than Federal Match bullets.

The bonded bullets you are considering should do even better.

Federal uses the 165gr Trophy Bonded Bearclaw bullet in their Law Enforcement Tactical load.
Things change so I am not sure if they are making that load. The standard Federal hunting ammo did just as well and anyone can buy it.
This would be the better of the bullets I have mentioned so far, simply because the rear of the bullet is solid, and it can only loose so much weight, and cannot totally come appart.

The one load that did better were the loads with Barnes X bullets.

In fact for Urban Law enforcement use the Barnes just might be too much of a good thing.

But in the "field" it is my pick.

The Federal Factory 150 Barnes X Tripple Shock X bullet has been very accurate in the several different rifles I have shot it in.

It also works great on deer and wild pigs.

Stoney, I understand what you are saying about the BT's. At moderate impact velocites they have excellent on game performance. But above 3100 they begin to come apart alot quicker. Since the 150's already regulate will with Ball ammo, I was hoping I could do the same with the 125's. In can appreciate you suggestion of the 110gr TNT's. It shouldn't take much for them to loose their flight profile. I wouldn't really call this a "fail-safe". Anytime a citizen finds it necessary to discharge a firearm in an urban enviroment in defense of innocent life, it's already a very bad day, and many levels of "fail-safes" have already failed. A good backstop behind the badguy would be a much better solution, but you can't always count on them to stop in front of a concreate wall before they start shooting at you. Reduced penetration is by no means a failsafe. It's just one more thing that could reduce the potential for collateral damage.

This thread has been a real eye opener for me..

How f*^ked up is your society when you're casually discussing 400yd 'fields of fire' from front and rear doors and 'superior penetration of auto windshields'.

Some places more the others.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ne_w2rvBvU

My neighbors daughter found a spent projectile on her pillow.

quote:

Originally posted by johnfox:
This thread has been a real eye opener for me..

How f*^ked up is your society when you're casually discussing 400yd 'fields of fire' from front and rear doors and 'superior penetration of auto windshields'.

Johnfox: Not to worry too much. Most of these guys are just acting out fantasies congered up by watching too many B-grade movies. Most of them usually outgrow it. The few that don't typically find themselves guests of the state in one of our numerous correctional facilities.

johnfox,

I live in a quiet crime free neighborhood. But alot of shooters in the US compete in "tactical" rifle competitions, or three gun competitions (AR, shotgun and pistol).

Some people golf, I shoot AR's at IPSC shilouettes.

Take a close look at my avatar photo. I am smiling because I just popped the turret off a T54 at 2,000 meters with a 115mm Milan 2 anti tank guided missile launcher. Shooting bonded bullets through auto windshields is pretty tame in comparison.

NE450,

I have also used the Law Enforcement only Federal Tactical in 762 and 556 alot, 165 grain trophy bonded and 55 grain, now 62 grain, but Speer ruined the TBBC so am looking for an alternative. I am always interested in your comments. Thanks.

Back to the subject, I would appriciate any feed back on your experiences with Accubonds vs Interbonds.

Thanks,

Andy

quote:

Originally posted by Andy:

Were those expanded pictures of the 7 mm?

Yes 139gr .284 Interbond.

It struck a very large 42" heart girth WT doe on the scapula quartering on @ about 30 yds.

3200+ FPS MV.

Penetrated the scapula, lungs, liver, stomach, intestines ham, coming to rest next to the femur under the hide on the far end.

quote:

Originally posted by Andy:
Back to the subject, I would appriciate any feed back on your experiences with Accubonds vs Interbonds.

Thanks,

Andy

I've used both in .284.

The Accubond is very accurate, the Interbond accurate enough.

Significant differnece on game. IME

Accubond makes a mess on entry as it fragnents the nose W/a small exit wound. All WT I've hit W/the Accubond have went a short distance. None DRT

Interbond opens up inside the body cavity & every deer hit broadside have dropped in their tracks. All DRT. The Interbond seems to have more shock factor.

Andy, my comments we're directed at you. You didn't mention free fire zones or auto windscreens.

I can't offer any advice re the two projectiles mentioned. My buddy used 140gr Accubonds in his 6.5x55 in Namibia when we were there last year. He only recovered one projectile from the animals he shot and it had retained around 70% of it's weight.
My understanding, the Interbond is somewhat softer than the Accubond and expansion is correspondingly more than the Nosler.
I've got both loaded, 140gr Accubonds in 7mm08 and 129gr Interbonds in a 6.5x57 but I haven't taken any animals with either at this stage.

John

Woodleighs. 150-180. Whatever shoots the best.

Wildcat,

Your description pretty well sums up what I gathered from AR and other sites. The Nosler can cause alot of damage, apparently from fragmentation, and the Hornady may stay together longer making a more predictible wound profile. (More like a Woodleigh or Kodiak).

I guess I should not rule out the protected point Woodleigh just becasue it does not have a BT or plastic tip. I load them for my father in law's 180/30-06.

It sounds like I can use either Nosler or Hornady. A 308 does not stress out any bullet too much.

I will probably start with the Accubond and post some test results here. I have a land owner preference tag each year for three either sex deer.

Andy

quote:

Originally posted by Andy:
Wildcat,

Your description pretty well sums up what I gathered from AR and other sites. The Nosler can cause alot of damage, apparently from fragmentation, and the Hornady may stay together longer making a more predictible wound profile. (More like a Woodleigh or Kodiak).

I guess I should not rule out the protected point Woodleigh just becasue it does not have a BT or plastic tip. I load them for my father in law's 180/30-06.

It sounds like I can use either Nosler or Hornady. A 308 does not stress out any bullet too much.

I will probably start with the Accubond and post some test results here. I have a land owner preference tag each year for three either sex deer.

Andy

The Accubonds gave me slightly larger than 1/2" 3 shot groups @ 100yds, the Interbonds hovered around the 1" group size. I chose the interbonds for the more dependable performance as although I do a lot of 250yd + shooting @ game on my place, thick cover is only a few bounds away. The small exit woulds of the Accubond sometimes left minimal or no blood trail even on exit.

I would shoot a 200 gr. Nosler partition if I had to use one bullet for both, or perhaps a Northfork cup point..You into a trade off situation for sure and what happens is the bullet you choose won't be perfect for either disipline..

My good would be a North Fork flat nose solid for self defense and vehicle penetration, and a soft point of some brand for game that shot to the same POI..

Ray,

Thanks for checking in. I did not expect to see you on what un-intentionally turned into sort of a para-military thread.

As it turns out neither windshields or bad guys are that tough of a target. Even in 223, the go-to rounds are winchesters new 62 grain bonded solid base and the old stand by 62 grain Trophy Bonded by Federal. (A 62 grain version of 55 grain TBBC). Both are Law Enforcement only.

The Barnes monos dont do as well as you might think, but NF cup point and FN would probably do alot better. (Barnes blows off front end and ends up wadcutter and does not track straight).

Even the Fusion does pretty well and it is no more than an electroplated lead bullet, not really a bonded.

In military and LE world cup and core bullets are considered franglible and best for bad gutys,the bonded bullets medium expansion and suitable for barriers without giving up too much on bad guys, and the various AP's barrier and armor only.

I have not found data on the 308 Nosler Accubond but it is available on the TAP and Interbond.

Andy