JonA, you continue to miss my point, although you're helping me make my point. I’m not quibbling over the fact that you can push a 200 grain bullet out of 300 RUM at 3100 fps, 3000 fps, or whatever, the point being is that you can push a 260/270 grain bullet from a 375 RUM fast enough to give you an essentially equivalent trajectory (indeed, Nosler lists max velocity for their 260/270 grain bullets at 3026 fps in the 375 RUM and 3102 for their 200 gr. Partition in the 300 RUM – both using 26†barrels). Even with this data the trajectories of the two are not significantly different for practical hunting purposes, either for long or short range use. BUT, the Ft# of energy differences continue to be significantly. [I think it's stupid to quibble over the difference in trajectory of a 200 Accubond pushed to 3048 fps vs. 2988 fps - in the field this will not matter. Besides, in time, I'm certain I can find even faster loads for the 375 using slower burning powders and still not exceed 65,000 psi.]

Oh, by the way, don’t forget about the bullets offered by Lost River Ballistics. They offer .375 caliber j36 hunting bullets as follows:

J36 .375-275 grain BC=0.590
________________________________________

J36 .375-300 grain BC=0.640

I guess you don't need a 375 bullet to be 350 grs. to have a BC of 0.6 - a 300 grainer will do just fine. Also, calculate the external ballistics of a 275 gr. bullet with a BC of 0.59 shot at a velocity of ~3026 fps., and then tell me it would not be suitable for very long range shooting. After my trip to Wyoming where I bag a bull elk at 500 yds, I go to Africa and use the same gun for cape buffalo, elephants, lions, or whatever else I want to shoot.

Also, can your 300 RUM stabilize a bullet with a BC over 0.7. What's your twist rate?

Finally, have you ever loaded Re25, Retumbo, or MRP-2 behind 180 gr. bullets in the 300 WM equipped with a 26" barrel?

quote:

...the point being is that you can push a 260/270 grain bullet from a 375 RUM fast enough to give you an essentially equivalent trajectory....[I think it's stupid to quibble over the difference in trajectory....

I never mentioned trajectory. If it has a BC over .4 and is launched at more than 2900 it's well within my "comfort zone" for a carry rifle--simply point and shoot on most "normal" shots. Anything that looks like it even might be beyond 300 yds gets ranged by me these days, it makes no difference to me if one load needs a click or two more. Range is easy to compensate for precisely.

Wind is not. That's the #1 reason for super high BC's at extended ranges. In bucking the wind, BC rules.

quote:

BUT, the Ft# of energy differences continue to be significantly.

Your 260 AccuBond numbers show energy dropping below 2000 Ft# before 700 yds. My current 240 SMK load won't do that until beyond 1000 yds at the same 5000 ft altitude. The bullets I'll be using this season should easily make it past 1200 yds with a full 2000 Ft#'s.

Like I said, not on the same planet.

quote:

Oh, by the way, don’t forget about the bullets offered by Lost River Ballistics.

Actually I did. I know of only a very precious few who have been able to make them shoot worth a damn. But if you want to compare apples to apples, I could launch their 180 with a .672 BC at around 3350 (which is also what Lost River's load data lists) if it's as high friction as I figure...how fast could you launch the 300? Check them wind drift figures.... I also didn't mention their .93 BC 30 cal--that wouldn't be fair, as they don't see the need to make .375 long range match bullets, because yes, they would need to be that heavy to compete with the 30's....

quote:

Also, calculate the external ballistics of a 275 gr. bullet with a BC of 0.59 shot at a velocity of ~3026 fps., and then tell me it would not be suitable for very long range shooting.

It would do very nicely out to what many call "medium ranges." But first, you need to buy some of those bullets. You need to see if you can actually shoot them that fast without killing yourself--that's faster than they list for max in the 378 WBY. Then see if they shoot worth a damn.

After all that's accomplished, you can start talking like you know the capabilities. Right now you haven't a clue. You started off in this thread with a Failsafe.... I've been there and done that with .7+ BC bullets so far, with the strong possibility for significant improvement in the future.

quote:

Also, can your 300 RUM stabilize a bullet with a BC over 0.7. What's your twist rate?

The 240 SMK, while it may have been a bit marginal in my old 1:10 twist barrel, was the most accurate bullet that barrel ever fired. The new barrel is a 1:9 twist in anticipation of the bigger and better things I should have in my grubby little hands within a month or so. Here are the first five 240 SMK's fired from this tube:

quote:

Finally, have you ever loaded Re25, Retumbo, or MRP-2 behind 180 gr. bullets in the 300 WM equipped with a 26" barrel?

Most of those weren't around when I was playing with the Win Mag, and I don't doubt you may well be able to exceed 3200 slightly with Retumbo if you can stuff enough into the case...but I've played with that combo in a much bigger case enough to know you're fooling yourself if you think you're on "the right side" of 65000 at 3300 in the Win Mag case.

Some of my old posts:

Shot some reloads in my 300 ultra today.
It is a win mod 70 classic with a 26" barrel.

Retumbo
200 grain SIERRA boattail SP
94----3115
94.5--3134
95----3120
95.5--3105

Retumbo
200 grain speer spitzer
94----3095
94.5--3130
95----3159
95.5--3211

R22
Speer 200 grain spitzer
83----3051
84----3084
85----3113
86----3097

R22
Sierra 200 boatail SP
83----3032
84----3019
85----3038
86----3066

IMR 7828
200 speer spitzer
86----3035
87----3013
88----3060
89----3136

IMR 7828
200 sierra boattail SP
86----3041
87----3064
88----3092
89----3115

Retumbo
155 grain nosler J-9
100.5---3383
101-----3413
101.5---3451

Factory remington 180 nosler
3323, 3265, 3311, 3307

These are good for my rifle. Please work up.

Posted 05 April 2004 19:33
While shooting my 375 ultra with the groove bullets I also shot some Barnes x's in my 300 ultra.


Barnes X 200 grain 300 RUM

IMR 4350
78 grains ...2942


IMR 7828
85 grains ....3042,3041,3039

CCI 250, COL 3.550

JonA, here’s an analysis from QL for the 375 RUM – note the 3066 fps velocity predicted for the 275 gr. LRB (BC=0.59). Do the external ballistics – IT’S FLAT and delivers massive down range energy. You can do more with these slow burning powders, which haven't fully made the reloading manuals yet.

Cartridge : .375 Rem Ultra Mag
Bullet : .375, 275, LRB J36
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.600 inch
Barrel Length : 26.0 inch

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders. Matching Maximum Pressure: 65000 psi. or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 120 %

Hodgdon Retumbo /107.1/3066 fps/64981
Norma MRP-2/119.8/3064/65000
Alliant Reloder-25/117.0/3056/65000
Alliant Reloder-22/110.8/3028/65000

JonA, here is the calculated ballistic data. It's plenty flat for very long range use. Also, a 275 gr. bullet going 3066 at the muzzle should buck the wind quite well. By the way, the LRB 180 30 caliber J36 shoots sub MOA in my 300 WM and at full power. Why wouldn't the J36 should well in the .375 RUM?

Muzzle velocity: 3066 fps
Bullet weight: 275 grs
Ballistic coefficient: .59
Altitude: 5000 ft
Temp: 59 °F
Sight height: 1.5 in
Max range: 600 yd
Increment: 100 yd
Zero range: 300 yd

0 yd 3066 fps 5740 ft.lbs -1.5 in
100 yd 2929 fps 5238 ft.lbs 3.2 in
200 yd 2796 fps 4773 ft.lbs 3.84 in
300 yd 2667 fps 4343 ft.lbs 0 in
400 yd 2542 fps 3944 ft.lbs -8.70 in
500 yd 2420 fps 3575 ft.lbs -22.67 in
600 yd 2301 fps 3233 ft.lbs -42.68 in

JonA, no doubt 3300 fps with a 300 WM is pushing it. I use 83 grs. of Re25 and consistently get ~3300 fps from a 26" barrel - I think I have a slow lot. I can reload my cases ~5 times and continue to have tight primer pockets. But, I think this is exceptional and due to the quirky nature of my gun (custom made) and my lot of Re25. I'm willing to tap and compress the powder with the bullet and have no trouble getting in these amounts of powder. I also have 8# of H870.

Cartridge : .300 Win. Mag.(N)
Bullet : .308, 180, NOS BalTip 30180
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch or 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 26.0 inch or 660.4 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders. Matching Maximum Pressure: 65000 psi, or 448 MPa or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 120 %

ADI AR 2218/94.2/3292
Hodgdon H870/94.1/3277
Hodgdon Retumbo/86.4/3238
Norma MRP 2/84.4/3234
Vihtavuori N560/80.6/3229
Alliant Reloder-25/83.2/3224

This is turning into one fine pissing match

...

I got the used RCBS 300 RUM dies today, and also a loaded cartridge. Man - that thing is FAT compared to the 300 Win!

Remington sure knew what they did when they designed the Ultra cases. They appeal to my reptile brain - bigger is indeed better

For North American game there's little reason to get a 375 RUM [a 30-06 is fine], but if you plan on an African trip, the 375 RUM is the better choice - it works as well in North America as it will work in Africa.

JonA, what bullets and load will you be using this fall? Do you shoot at elk and deer beyond 1000 yds.?

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
JonA, here’s an analysis....You can do more with these slow burning powders, which haven't fully made the reloading manuals yet.

Exactly the point I was trying to make a few posts ago but you said that didn't count--I needed to use REAL DATA. And in my case the powder is only a couple of months old....

quote:

JonA, here is the calculated ballistic data....should buck the wind quite well.

Like I said, certainly not bad. But it will have more than 20% more wind drift than my 240 load, and depending upon where the BC of the new bullet ends up something like 30-40% more than it.

But being "not bad" or even quite respectable is a long way off from making it a better tool for this specific job than the 300, which is what you were contending.

quote:

By the way, the LRB 180 30 caliber J36 shoots sub MOA in my 300 WM and at full power. Why wouldn't the J36 should well in the .375 RUM?

That's nice, consider yourself lucky. Many have not been so. IIRC Warren explained years ago that most of the accuracy problems were due to the exact bore diameter (no, they're not all the same) of a particular rifle not agreeing with his bullets. His bullets are very, very, hard and unforgiving if not mated with a bore just the right size. They might shoot beautifully in your 375. They might not. There have been too many on the "not" end of it to count on their agreeing with your rifle as a given.

quote:

JonA, what bullets and load will you be using this fall?

The details are subject to change once we see how they turn out and how the testing goes, but it'll be a 250 grain ULD with a RBBT, looking very similar to the 200 grain 7mm's pictured here:



The biggest thing as it pertains to this discussion, is they'll have a BC significantly higher than the 240 SMK (which is already not too shabby). I expect my rifle will be able to launch them around 2950. The long range ballistics will be amazing.

In addition, they'll be made with tapered jackets. And bonded cores if desired. While the 240 SMK is quite amazing in terminal performance, this brings possibilities to a whole 'nother level. It'll take some testing and possibly tweaking along the way (I'll be using The Bullet Test Tube ) but the end result should be much better game bullets (and like I said, the 240 is already pretty damn good).

quote:

Do you shoot at elk and deer beyond 1000 yds.?

I don't "shoot at" elk and deer at any range. I don't like the implication. It has been something like 15 years since any pull of my trigger didn't result in something being shot. I'm trying to keep it that way.

Which is one reason I believe in such overkill for the application. Maybe it's the Engineer in me who wants "sufficient Margin of Safety."

I don't expect to shoot anything beyond 1000 yds any time soon--but I want to be able to. I don't want to take a 400 yd shot with a gun/cartridge/bullet that's barely "adequate" at 401 yds. It should be more than adequate at 5-600 before I'd use it at 400. To take a 5-600 yd shot, the rifle/round/bullet should be capable of easily doing the job at 7-800 yds. For 800, the stuff should be good for well beyond 1000. And so on and so forth.

This includes the shooter. This means much practice at ranges way beyond what I'd consider even an option on game. When you do this practicing, many things happen. One of them, at least to me, was realizing that "adequate" or "good enough" or even "not bad" may not be one's first choice.

To me this long range stuff isn't about showing off skill, bragging rights or anything of the sort. It's about increasing your odds on a shot you may be faced with in every way possible. I'll take every advantage I can get. Too many times over the years, I've had to let animals walk because I knew my chances of placing the first round perfectly just weren't acceptable. Some of my past "long range loads" before I knew any better had close to three times the wind drift of what I'll have now. Sheesh. That stuff does show up in the real world in a big way. If you want to do it, I see no reason not to use the best tool I can get my hands on.

That in no way means others can't have success pushing smaller rounds to their very limits. I just prefer not to, that's all. One can kill elephants with a 7X57 too. But if I ever get the chance, I'm going to choose a better tool for the job. That's just my preference.

My personal best. .675" at 300 yards. Same load did .292" at 100 yards
300 RUM SAKO 75 Stainless Synthetic (stock rifle)
200 grain Accubond retumbo and 3175fps.

JonA, thanks for the nice response - clearly you're really into long-range shooting. Yet, I wonder what you could accomplish with the 375 RUM or 378 Weatherby Magnum, if you developed similar high-BC .375 hunting bullets. A 300 gr. bullet with a BC of .640 launched at ~3000 fps would have super wind-bucking qualities, plus massive short-range and more-than-adequate down-range energy. Also, you might get longer barrel life, although more recoil. I could take such a weapon to Africa for the dangerous game animals - I'd love to hunt cape buffulo and elephant, then return to Arizona for cross-canyon hunting for a bull elk of B&C proportions. This would be just one super magnum for all purposes - that is, for those of us who can afford only one such gun. Finally, why not use a 30-378, 338-378, or 50BMG, if you want to use only the best available tool?

quote:

A 300 gr. bullet with a BC of .640

Who makes that .375 hunting bullet?

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
Finally, why not use a 30-378, 338-378, or 50BMG, if you want to use only the best available tool?

Simple answer, Too heavy, too much recoil, burn barrels too fast and are more powerful than necessary. Use a more appropriate tool for the job...................DJ

Jay, Lost River Ballistics offers a 300 gr. solid .375 (J36) hunting bullet with a BC = 0.64. Awesome! - but expensive. A .378 Weatherby Magnum with a 26" barrel should be able to launch it at 3000 fps plus. Ouch! Regards, AIU

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
Jay, Lost River Ballistics offers a 300 gr. solid .375 (J36) hunting bullet with a BC = 0.64. Awesome! - but expensive. A .378 Weatherby Magnum with a 26" barrel should be able to launch it at 3000 fps plus. Ouch! Regards, AIU

Lost River Ballistics the only bullet I've ever had worse luck with than the Barnes X (The legend) Thanks but no thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
JonA, thanks for the nice response - clearly you're really into long-range shooting. Yet, I wonder what you could accomplish with the 375 RUM or 378 Weatherby Magnum, if you developed similar high-BC .375 hunting bullets. A 300 gr. bullet with a BC of .640 launched at ~3000 fps would have super wind-bucking qualities, plus massive short-range and more-than-adequate down-range energy. Also, you might get longer barrel life, although more recoil. I could take such a weapon to Africa for the dangerous game animals - I'd love to hunt cape buffulo and elephant, then return to Arizona for cross-canyon hunting for a bull elk of B&C proportions. This would be just one super magnum for all purposes - that is, for those of us who can afford only one such gun. Finally, why not use a 30-378, 338-378, or 50BMG, if you want to use only the best available tool?

The 375 caliber for long range work is being worked on as we speak. If Wildcat bullets comes up with a 400 grain high bc bullet for the 375 caliber,then Kirby Allen is going to built such a tool

AIU, it sounds like for your uses, the 375 RUM is perfect. Keep in mind, unless you're trying to shoot really far, most of this stuff comes down to personal preference, how big a hole you want to make, how much recoil you can stand, how heavy you want the rifle, etc and is splitting hairs until you get out a ways. Most of what we're talking about here will do just fine out to well farther than most people plan on shooting.

But when choosing, splitting hairs isn't a bad thing to do--but even more important is understanding the reasons behind why a hair splits one way or the other.

As you go up in caliber, you gain potential everywhere (with the right bullets). The catch is you need a bigger case in order to realize it from a ballistics (wind drift, trajectory, retained velocity) standpoint. And you gain a bunch more recoil.

For example, I thought long and hard about getting the new tube in this rifle in .338 instead of .308. I could have done 338 RUM or more likely 338 EDGE (300 RUM necked up to .338 giving a nice gain in capacity over the 338 RUM).

But in order to compete ballisticly with these 250's, I'd need to shoot 300's from the .338. Even the EDGE, with the same capacity will lag behind by a couple hundred fps with the same barrel length. So I'd be giving up some ballistic performance for a bigger hole and some more energy. I'd be gaining a bunch of recoil.

In order to match the ballistics, I'd need to go to a 378 WBY or 416 Rigby cased wildcat. Even if I could fit those cases into this rifle, now you're talking about a HUGE gain in recoil. Honestly, I really doubt I'd be able to shoot a rifle of this weight shooting 300 grain bullets over 140 grains of powder or so at 3000 fps as accurately as I can shoot this one. That would be brutal. 240's at 3000, I can handle. 300's at 3000, I don't think so. And I don't want a brake or a rifle so heavy I can't carry all day. That's a whole lot of compromises just to match the ballistics and gain a bigger hole and some more energy at impact. At some point one needs to ask, "How big a hole do I really need to make?"

And the same goes for the 375 bore. As JWP said, it probably won't be long before there are people shooting serious LR 375's. But in order to match the 250 30 cals, or the 300 338's, it's going to need at least 375 grain bullets. Launched at 2950+.... Even the 378 WBY case can't do that from the same barrel length. You're now talking 408 Chey Tack, 50 BMG, etc based wildcats. Custom actions. BIG BUCKS. And a rifle you ain't gunna want to carry up the mountain all day.

That's just to match what I've got now for wind drift, trajectory, velocity retention, etc, basically everything that matters for placing the shot at the farthest range possible. I'm thinking the 250's of mine will make a big enough hole....

Of course, like I said, they are gaining potential. A huge cased 338 shooting 350's will beat my rifle in every way. A 375 shooting 400's or 450's with BC's right up there with (maybe even beating) the best 50 BMG bullets...well, if I was going to pay for and deal with a rifle like that, that's what I'd be doing! That's where the gain is. But it's not exactly an apples to apples comparison anymore.

And the same goes the other way--for example, the 7mm RUM with the right bullet can spank the 300 RUM ballisticly and do it with less recoil. But I'll make a bigger hole.

It's all about finding the compromise that fits you best. Like I said, all of these rounds are more than capable of doing just fine as far as most will ever want to shoot them.

It's only if you're a LR nut like me (even if only for plinking) where this hair splitting starts to really show itself.