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Just a reminder less than 3" @ 300 yards
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Picture of Mike_Dettorre
posted
I have been trying to simplify my rifle battery for forever and then I always get the bug...

The latest has been "I really need a 270 win" because that 150 grn bullet 2950 fps is so flat shooting...

Then I go check the ballistics on my 308 win at 2635 fps with a 180 grn bullet and realize the difference in drop at 300 yards between it and the 270 win is a mere 2.9 inches.

Damn don't you hate how little practical difference there is between all these cartridges.

Oh my God, we better find something better to argue about.


Mike

Legistine actu quod scripsi?

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.




What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 10162 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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Mike

You are correct.

No doubt the 270 Win is a great hunting cartridge for deer and sheep sized game.

However if people will just look at say the Federal ammo catalog they will see that the 308 has many loads that shoot as "flat" as the 270.

IMHO if you have a 308, then you do not need any other calibre from 243 to 30/06 for deer sized game.

You could say the same if you have a 270 as well.

If you look at the Federal ammo catalog, you will see that there are some 308 loads that have more power at 500 yards than some 300 Win Mag loads... Eeker

At a distance, the BC of the bullet really becomes an important factor.


DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY
 
Posts: 16134 | Location: Texas | Registered: 06 April 2002Reply With Quote
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Three inches can be the difference between success and failure.

Which is why I prefer the 7mm Rem. Mag. or the .270 WSM. Cool


Mike

Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer.
 
Posts: 13742 | Location: New England | Registered: 06 June 2003Reply With Quote
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Picture of Mike_Dettorre
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Yeah Lex...except inaccurate range estimation is inaccurate range estimation and a poor hold is a poor hold so...your point unfortunately is irrelevant Cool


Mike

Legistine actu quod scripsi?

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.




What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 10162 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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I have a Tikka M65 in 270 that is a joy to shoot.I just purchased a BRNO 601 in 308 Win. Ran my loads over a chrono and lo and behold I'm averaging 2880 FPS with the Sierra 150 gn gamekings.This load shows no pressure signs.
This BRNO also puts five rounds into around half an inch at 115 meters.I've put over 100 rounds through it and the largest group went 0.89 ". Kind of makes the 270 seem redundant, don't it?
rob


"the older I get, the better I was"
 
Posts: 462 | Location: Coogee, Australia | Registered: 26 February 2002Reply With Quote
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With lazer rangefinders it is easy to determine the exact range...

The 308 also has an excellent reputation for accuracy.

Still I will not say anything bad about the 270.

With good ammo, and good bullets, well handled either will serve you well.

For deer sized game, I do not think there is five cents difference between the 7mm/08, 7x57, 7x64, 270, 280, 308, or the 30/06.

Probably no actual difference on elk sized game either, with all the Premium bullets currently on the market.

My wife had no problems with her 308 on game in Zimbabwe.

Kudu [2 of them with her 308 one with her 30/06 Drilling], wildbeast, impala and zebra.

I used "her" 308 on bushbuck, honey badger, and heyena.

I have shot some big wild pigs and blackbear with the 308 as well. No problems.


DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY
 
Posts: 16134 | Location: Texas | Registered: 06 April 2002Reply With Quote
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Picture of TC1
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
Damn don't you hate how little practical difference there is between all these cartridges.



Sounds like you need to get rid of the .308 then. Wink

Terry


--------------------------------------------

Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?
 
Posts: 6315 | Location: Mississippi | Registered: 18 May 2002Reply With Quote
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Picture of ACRecurve
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Naw! His 308 needs a 270 to keep it company between hunts! Y'all are shaking my faith in man's love of guns. Confused Big Grin


Good hunting,

Andy

-----------------------------
Thomas Jefferson: “To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.”

 
Posts: 6711 | Location: Oklahoma, USA | Registered: 14 March 2001Reply With Quote
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Picture of Michael Robinson
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
Yeah Lex...except inaccurate range estimation is inaccurate range estimation and a poor hold is a poor hold so...your point unfortunately is irrelevant Cool


Your argument is fallacious. You can't have it both ways. Cool

Some degree of error is inevitable. Flatter trajectory provides a greater, and in some cases, a significant margin of error.

Three inches of flatter trajectory at three hundred yards can be the difference between a wounded, and lost, animal, and one that is killed cleanly.


Mike

Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer.
 
Posts: 13742 | Location: New England | Registered: 06 June 2003Reply With Quote
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Picture of Tapper2
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by mrlexma:
quote:
Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
Yeah Lex...except inaccurate range estimation is inaccurate range estimation and a poor hold is a poor hold so...your point unfortunately is irrelevant Cool


Your argument is fallacious. You can't have it both ways. Cool

Some degree of error is inevitable. Flatter trahectory provides a greater, and in some cases, a significant margin of error.

Three inches of flatter trajectroy at three hundred yards can be the difference between a wounded, and lost, animal, and one that is killed cleanly.


Three inches to high can be just as bad as three inches to low. I agree with Mike, knowing where your gun shoots is the important factor. A poor shot is a poor shot, even a laser won't fix that.......Tom


SCI lifer
NRA Patron
DRSS
DSC
 
Posts: 654 | Location: Denver, Iowa | Registered: 10 June 2009Reply With Quote
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Picture of Blacktailer
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Tapper2:
quote:
Originally posted by mrlexma:
quote:
Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
Yeah Lex...except inaccurate range estimation is inaccurate range estimation and a poor hold is a poor hold so...your point unfortunately is irrelevant Cool


Your argument is fallacious. You can't have it both ways. Cool

Some degree of error is inevitable. Flatter trahectory provides a greater, and in some cases, a significant margin of error.

Three inches of flatter trajectroy at three hundred yards can be the difference between a wounded, and lost, animal, and one that is killed cleanly.


Three inches to high can be just as bad as three inches to low. I agree with Mike, knowing where your gun shoots is the important factor. A poor shot is a poor shot, even a laser won't fix that.......Tom

You are talking about 1 MOA. If 1 MOA is going to be your deciding point in taking a shot or not, you had better get closer. Personally, I don't see the need for anything between 223, 308, and 375 Cool


Have gun- Will travel
The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark
 
Posts: 3831 | Location: Cave Creek, AZ | Registered: 09 August 2001Reply With Quote
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Picture of Mike_Dettorre
posted Hide Post
Now Russ, do not confuse these folks with practicality of the actual ballistics and real field experience

Please do not mention that using the same bullets and velocities above that the 308 if set 1/2 inch high at 200 will be 5.3 inches low @ 275 and 11.6 inches low at 325 for a drop/window of 6.3 inches

but...the 270 zeroed at 230 yards will be 3 inches low @ 275 and 7.9 inches low at 325 for a drop/window of 4.9 inches

for a huge difference of 1.4 inches.


Mike

Legistine actu quod scripsi?

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.




What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 10162 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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Picture of TC1
posted Hide Post
I understand what you're saying and agree with most of it. I've hunted deer for years with both cartridges and never have been able to tell any difference in the two. In all honesty 1 rifle would serve most folks for all of thier needs. Who wants thier life that simple though? I still own and use both. These day's the .308 mainly shoots paper while the .270 hunts.

Terry


--------------------------------------------

Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?
 
Posts: 6315 | Location: Mississippi | Registered: 18 May 2002Reply With Quote
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Picture of Michael Robinson
posted Hide Post
All else being equal, as between two rifles for long range hunting, the one that shoots flatter is absolutely better.

Anyone who would disagree with that needs to sit under an apple tree for an afternoon in the fall.

So, the question then becomes, "How much better?"

I have been in situations where three inches at 275-325 yards absolutely mattered.

So, I have concluded that the absolute advantage of the flatter trajectory can be very important, even for as "little" as three inches of advantage.

Of course, four or five inches flatter would be even better. Cool


Mike

Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer.
 
Posts: 13742 | Location: New England | Registered: 06 June 2003Reply With Quote
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Picture of Mike_Dettorre
posted Hide Post
I guess I will take hours of practice (experience) over the 1.4 (or 2.9) inches of theory...

Reminds me of the time that the guy at the skeet range was espousing the virtues of the faster lock time of his Remington 3200 which was about to arrive and how said faster lock time was going to improve his score...when a wise older gentleman said...I got an idea...

"Why don't you buy a case of shells and practice"


Mike

Legistine actu quod scripsi?

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.




What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 10162 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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Picture of Michael Robinson
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How did you know that I don't believe in practice?

Aw, hell.

Now another one of my sharpshooting secrets has been revealed. Big Grin


Mike

Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer.
 
Posts: 13742 | Location: New England | Registered: 06 June 2003Reply With Quote
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Picture of Bobby Tomek
posted Hide Post
Mike_Dettorre wrote:
quote:
I guess I will take hours of practice (experience) over the 1.4 (or 2.9) inches of theory...


Hallelujah! Experience and proficiency will trump a minor edge in ballistics any day of the week.

I am currently shooting a rifle which drives a 129 grain bullet (BC of .445) at a modest 2637 fps and have no qualms about taking a 300 yard shot. But I am intimately familiar with the trajectory, what the bullet will do (terminal performance) at various ranges and exactly how it reacts to a bit of wind.

Granted, its ballistics may pale in comparison to the super-whizz-bang magnums and may be an inch or two behind a few standard rounds, but it does the job quite well for me.

And, to date, I haven't heard complaints from any of the animals I've shot with it... Big Grin


Bobby
Μολὼν λαβέ
The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri

 
Posts: 9437 | Location: Shiner TX USA | Registered: 19 March 2002Reply With Quote
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Picture of ted thorn
posted Hide Post
Good to hear from you Bobby, how are you feeling?


________________________________________________
Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper
Proudly made in the USA
Acepting all forms of payment
 
Posts: 7361 | Location: South East Missouri | Registered: 23 November 2005Reply With Quote
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Picture of Bobby Tomek
posted Hide Post
Ted-

Thanks! I've had a few better days here lately and even got to do a bit of shooting recently.

Today has been pretty rough with the pain, but -- as has become my new philosophy -- I am always looking forward to a better tomorrow.

Before long, I am bound and determined to try and get a shot at a hog. But none of the specialists here seem to be familair with hunting deficit disorder... Smiler


Bobby
Μολὼν λαβέ
The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri

 
Posts: 9437 | Location: Shiner TX USA | Registered: 19 March 2002Reply With Quote
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Picture of Mike_Dettorre
posted Hide Post
Just a little boredom and red wine to annoy my friends



Mike

Legistine actu quod scripsi?

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.




What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 10162 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
The above table proves what I have said for quite a few years: after about 325 yards, pretty much everything falls off the table. And very few of us have the opportunity to repeatedly shoot (or shoot at) game at honest ranges of 400 yards or longer ("flat yards"; not using elevation changes, that is cheating!).
 
Posts: 4748 | Location: TX | Registered: 01 April 2005Reply With Quote
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