I'm helping my dad look for "him" a rifle , OK it'll be mine but he's going to use it most of the time and tonight we looked at three.

A Howa. The fit and finish was not that great. The bolt was far from slick. The stock was rough and well, cheap. Plus it has a 22" barrel and like the feel of a 24" barrel. The price was right at $309, but I think we ruled it out.

A Weatherby Vanguard. I know its made by the same company, but the finish, the bolt and stock are a lot better than the Howa. Plus I like the 24" barrel better. Down side, 2 position safety. The price $388.

A Wal-Mart Winchester. I have 2 Winchesters. I like Winchesters. But this one is a push feed ADL, without the flood plate. I've owned one ADL rifle in the past and would rather have a BDL. The upside, the safety, the 24" barrel and it a Winchester. For $398 it comes with a cheap scope which I'd put on my wifes 22.

So which one is the better rifle?

Mark,
From my experience I would go with the Vanuard. Put together much better than the pushfeed Winchesters. I picked up a Vanguard in 300WTBY last summer(synthetic stock). My first batch of handloads shot under an inch at the upper end of the powder range. My youngest nephew took it over and wouldn't give it up for anything.

I wouldn't by either from Wal-Mart. There rifles aren't the same quality as those found in a gun-shop. (unless they're a Wally World trade-in)

I'll bet we won't get one disappointed vanguard user to chime in here. They ARE A STEAL. The great thing about rifles in this price range is HOW MUCH COULD YOU LOSE IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT???
Someone is always looking for an entry level gun.
You put it in the paper at a $75 loss and people will beat your doors down. On the other hand if you get lucky and get a "shooter" you got the steal. We've all peed away $75 on worse ideas than this. Just my way of thinking.

I'd get the Vanguard from Walmart, for $388 I'm even thinking of getting another 30 cal. since I don't have a 300 Weatherby. I believe the reason you won't find the same quality guns at Walmart is that no else is allowed to sell Vanguards, they did an exclusive deal with Weatherby/Howa.

As far as Winchesters etc. they are exactly the same quality as you find at the local gun store, assuming you look at the same models. Walmart is big enough that they do get special runs made to keep the price down on some models that no one else will have. They also don't carry the more expensive models in the various manufacturers lineup. But if you look at the base model 70's , 700's, 94's etc. it's what your local store sells for $100 more.

Mark65X55, I wouldn't buy any of them! They are typical Wal-Mart pushfeed, bottom of the line! You can't buy a decent piece of wood for a stock for $388 ! Sorry son, but facts is facts!

The grades you mention as "ADL" and "BDL" are strictly Remington designations, and do not apply to any other brand.

I had a Vanguard with a custom laminated stock. Very nice, accurate rifle. Its one of the few that will rival a Savage for low cost, out of the box value.

Why are people so hung up on this ADL/BDL thing. Does Remington own the copy right to ADL/BDL? When I said the Winchester was ADL everybody understands its a blind box magazine, without the floor plate, right?

I'd go with the Howa's.I bought them for my daughters when they wanted to start hunting.They all shot 1/2" groups with out much trouble.Enjoy.

Gentlemen,

I purchased a Weatherby Vanguard in 7mm RM for my father a couple of years ago from Wal-Mart. It shoots beautifully, with a wide variety of loads. The fit and finish is fine, and he is very happy with it. I'd buy another if I needed an inexpensive rifle.

Joel Slate
Slate & Associates, LLC
www.slatesafaris.com

7mm Rem Mag Page www.slatesafaris.com/7mm.htm

I think you will be able to buy vangards from a dealer in the near future. I received the new weatherby catalog in the mail the other day and it had the vangard in it ive never seen it in there before and i talked to a dealer and he said he thought it was going to change also

mark, you need to make sure you don't judge Howas by that sample of one. Every one I've ever handled, including mine, was very well machined, very well put together, and very smooth. Mine is exceptionally accurate, averaging .6 moa for three shot groups.

I don't believe for a minute that Weatherby Vanguards are paid any more attention than the Howa branded products by the factory. For the price Weatherby is charging, I hardly think they can afford to pay Howa more money to do additional finishing up. This is a business and the only ones who lose money are us.

Yes, Howa stocks (except the Boyds JRS laminated) are mostly junk. Just like what they are on most rifles costing $350.

In fact, the best deal going is probably to buy a Howa 1500 barrelled action and stocking it to suit.

Mark Bansner and Bill Weiseman build custom rifles on Howa barrelled actions. That's enough endorsement for me.

[ 02-04-2003, 00:32: Message edited by: ksduckhunter ]

Mark;
The ADL/BDL is definately a Remington designater.
But on the upside!
The Bolts on the Winchester 70 blind box magazine rifles you were looking at, are the New "Controlled Round Push Feed" Bolts!
Which gives the stiffness of a push feed [inherently more accurate] yet will securely grip a cartridge, fed from the magazine or loaded singlely by hand.
If you were looking at a M70 with hinged floorplate then that is the old style push feed bolt.

[ 02-04-2003, 00:42: Message edited by: Marsh Mule ]