The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles What kind of accuracy should I expect from a budget rifle...Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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...this kind! Well not really, but I have shot a couple of budget Ruger Americans and 1 Savage for friends to get them sighted in over the last year and they all have been 7/8th MOA or better. This last Ruger American with Federal 150 grain copper was outstanding! Federal Copper 150s 9/16" @ 200 yards, that's right .28 MOA  Federal National Match 100 yards (sorry for the blurry photo) 3/4"  Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | ||
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Perfectly good for hunting. | |||
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With cnc machining being the norm most modern weapons have much tighter tolerences than their predisesors | |||
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Exactly, Everything from better metal alloys (computer controlled, more precise mixing) to CNC machining that will hold tolerances better than any manual machinist could consistently do. As much as we love the hand fitting of the old guns, modern manufacturing outperforms that. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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In the accuracy department some of the el cheapo rifles make high dollar rifles look sick | |||
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I bought a Ruger American All Weather 308Win about 4 years ago. It has an 18" stainless steel barrel and is ugly as sin. However that thing shoots incredibly well. I bought a few boxes of the cheapest 147gr fmj ammo I could find to get the rifle bore sighted and it printed three 3 shot groups at roughly 3/4". I then shot two 3 shot groups with Federal 168gr match ammo and they printed at 1/2". I was shocked to say the least. I was certainly not expecting a $300 rifle to shoot that good. It shoots almost as good as my heavy barreled Remington 700 Police that I paid almost triple the price for. | |||
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I think its the modern ammo as well. Bullets nowadays must be much better than they were fifty years ago. I have many old rifles that were never supposed to shoot that well, that all do around an inch with handloads. Of course I dont keep the bad ones, but even so. | |||
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What is your idea of a budget rifle.? My Savage 110 in 223 is capable of .3 MOA. Was $350.00 when I bought it years ago, today they are about $600.00 new, about $350.00 used Precise attention to case prep, (length, volume, neck tension, concentric run out) tuned Load, (seating depth, charge, primer) Aftermarket set 2oz. trigger Weight added to synthetic stock (lead in voids) 17 lbs Good bench, Good rest, Fore Arm metal Flat plate affixed to ride on a flat metal front rest 40X affordable Tasco Scope Moly treated 73 gr. LTB Berger bullets Moly treated bore 1/9 | |||
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The new budget rifles from Savage and Ruger although ugly and cheap looking shoot very well. As has been stated right out of the box they will embarrass some high end guns badly in the accuracy department. The Savage 110 is no longer a bargain basement gun; they are a bit higher in the tier these days. Budget priced Rem 700's usually shot poorly and have QC issues. I haven't seen or heard reports of the budget Rem guns - 783 etc; nor the Win XPR's or whatever their 2/3 plastic offerings are. PA Bear Hunter, NRA Benefactor | |||
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Budget rifle or high dollar custom rifle its all the same for me and I have both with my requirement, being a inch or better and a tendency to shoot all loads to the same POI, that may be the hard part, but Ive been lucky over the years.. the old 98 Mauser Husqvarnas shoot real well and dont fetch much money, Mine is rough as a cob, but shoots half inch to one inch clover leaf patterns 3 or 5 with cheap iron sights. its a 9.3x62 and has a horrid Birchwood stock that Im working on, but it will never suit me sooo who knows when and if it will get a walnut stock..I did install a timney and have a Buehler safty to install at some point...but I may just keep it as is and hunt with it..I like that idea..Ive worked on that stock, and its soft as balsa and hard to finish and wet sanding doesn;t seem to work nor does dye but I will hang in there best I can!!  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I have several budget guns. A Stevens 200 in 223 with a 12 inch twist that shoots 3/4 inch or better dwith factory stuff and most any handloads to around 1/2 inch. A Savage 10 that was a 243, I swapped in a 250 Savage barrel and shoots 3/4 inch or better with most any handload. Both of these guns I bought used for under $250. The new 250 Savage barrel was $135. The Mossberg Patriot in 6.5 Creedmoor I bought new at an auction for $350. With the Hornady 120 and 140 gr match ammo shoots into about 1/2 groups. From most of what I have read most of the budget guns can get similar results. There may be a few that are 1 1/2 inch guns even at that they work well for medium range hunting. The only way to know if you can do a thing is to do it. | |||
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I think accuracy from the bench is easy to get in an inexpensive rifle. Durability and reliability in hard hunting situations over a period of time might be a different story. But unfortunately I dont get enough hunting time these days to test that out. | |||
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Dean, What design, materials, or mfg techniques do you believe are less durabile in say a Ruger American vs. Browning X-bolt? Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I never owned a Browning X-bolt, I'm not sure I ever even handled one. I am tempted with the Ruger American, I'm certain I wont wear it out, but somehow I'm not as confident that they will hold up like the 77. Maybe that's misguided. | |||
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Dean, X-bolt was just an example, what is it about the 77 vs. American that makes you think the 77 will hold up better, other than because a 77 costs more. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Maybe deep down thats what I am hoping for. Is there any functional reason to choose a 77 over an American in the same cal? I have also been itching to get one of the 77/44s but they do seem pricy these days. | |||
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I won a Franchi Momentum Elite rifle in .308 Win. as part of an auction at SCI earlier this year. It came with a 1 MOA guarantee for three shots out of the box. When it showed up, I saw that the factory target measured 0.93 inch. The rifle sells for US$799.00 brand new! I was thinking I would sell it. But now I think I will keep it. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Buy a Tikka, reasonably priced. super accurate, great feeding. Light weight, All in all an amazing rifle. | |||
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The point of this post is not about the $740 rifle...it's about a $475 rifle. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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it seems as if there are 2 parts of this discussion: accuracy and reliability. to me, reliability is of greater importance than accuracy as my last several hunts have been fly-in hunts in alaska, 2 of which when I was hunting brown bear. On these hunts I used 2 different rifles of different calibers but the name make. I used these primarily because of the simplicity of design of the actions: when you talk to enough people who live and use equipment regularly in places like that, you learn that occasionally equipment does fail. So things like bolts fabricated in 2 or 3 parts, intricate trigger designs, etc. do in fact occasionally fail. There's a good reason that say, alaskan outfitters routinely use and/or recommend certain models such as the Ruger 77s and that is experience. When a model of rifle design works reliably over a period of 50-75 years in truly harsh environments, that tends to have people trust them. I don't live in such a place: only have hunted alaska 5 times, but I trust people who do and have shared their experience. My son IS an Alaskan guide. One of his sayings is hope for the best, but plan on the worst. Makes sense to me. Just my 2 cents worth. | |||
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I bought a 200.00 Thompson Center Compass in 6.5 Creedmoor that would shoot 1/2-3/4" groups most all the time with handloads Gave it to my son | |||
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I'm currently working up loads for a Ruger American Rifle, Predator, .243W Before I started I scoped the bore. I was shocked. It has the worst, roughest bore I have ever seen in any rifle. I debated whether to return the rifle for replacement. A friend persuaded me to shoot it first and I have been surprised. Yesterday I settled on a load with Hornady ELD-X 90 gn. My Sako .243W shoots smaller groups with the same bullet but this is good enough for the Ruger to shoot Rabbits, Hares and other pests out to 200 yds. I also started working up loads with Hornady V-Max 87 gn bullets. Looks like it really likes these with RL 17. Based on yesterday's results finding a tight shooting load should not be difficult.       Hunting.... it's not everything, it's the only thing. | |||
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I have a small 50x engineers microscope, handy to look for small cracks and other imperfections in injectors, bearings etc. Even what looks like highly polished surfaces to the naked eye or even a normal magnifying glass can look like the moons surface under this engineers scope. Best not to bother with a borescope, just shoot and see what the rifle will do. | |||
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That is truly an ugly bore. Hard to understand how Ruger cannot do better. But it does seem to shoot! Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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I have one of those in 9.3 x 62. Shoots the 250gr AB into sub-1/2 moa at +2700 fps. And the factory barrel is a Sako match grade. Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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As far as durability goes. I have an old left handed, J frame Savage 110 that I bought in 1985 to shoot coyotes and rabbits with. It's shot out 4 barrels and is still going strong. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles What kind of accuracy should I expect from a budget rifle...
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