What should the rate of twist be for the 35 Whelen using 250 grain bullets only. Last spring i bought a Remington 750 in 35 Whelen , i am getting 1 1/2" groups at 100 yards with remington express 250 PSP. Dont get me wrong i am very happy with this and i bet i can shrink that to 1" when i get the chance to experiment with my handloads. But shouldn't the best rate of twist be slower with that bullet weight ,and why do you think remington went with a 1 in 16

Try This...
Start a tight patch; being sure the jag is tight on the rod.
Mark the rod with a felt tip to indicate Top Dead Center and a starting point.
Advance the rod until it comes back to Top Dead Center.
Measure the distance traveled from the start mark. That is the rifling twist, one turn in xx inches.
A lot easier than trying to estimate the amount of twist in a foot.

Well, I've been pissing up a rope ranting about Remington screwing up with that 1 in 16" twist when it should be 1 in 12", but what the hell. It seems Ruger agreed and also went with a 1 in 16" twist. The custom Mauser I have that I picked up at an estate sale has a 1 in 14" twist.
So how to make the best of a bad (?) situation? I guess the down and dirty point is the 1 in 16" twist does work most of the time. My Remington 700 Classic is about a 1.25" gun most of the time with 250 gr. bullets. I can live with that considering the size game it would be used on. The Ruger 77RS now sits in a Ramline synthetic stock. It ain't pretty but 200 gr. bullets shoot int 1.25" and 250 gr. bullets the same. If I mix and match the two loads, the composite group is 1.50". The custom Mauser runs from 1.0" to 1.25" depending on bullet weight. Mind you, this is all with Remington factory ammo which in my not very humble opinion is not loaded to it's full potential. Theere's too many old 1903 Springields that were converted to the Whelen, so Remington has to play it safe.
So far, my handloads have not been any better than Remington's factory stuff, but they do go a bit faster.
I'm of the thought that Remington went to the slower twist rate for two reasons, none of which I agree with. One, the slower twist will help keep pressures in the already underloaded round even lower. Two, I'm also willing to bet the 200 gr. bullet will probably be the better seller even though the 250 gr. bullet is the proper one for the Whelen.
C.E. "Ed" harris wrote an article sometime in the 1970s in the American Rifleman on the .35 Whelen. In the article, he stated that Howe and Whelen decided that the twist should be 1 in 12" for bullets ranging from 250 gr. to 300 gr., with the fact that it would also work with 200 gr. bullets being just a bit of a bonus for the deer hunter.
I think that for the Whelen, a premium bullet is not necessary. I have friends in Canada who use the 250 gr. Speer Hot-core and shoot clean through both shoulders of a moose. Last year one of them drew a tag for Grizzly bear, and he stuck with his 250 gr. Speer load and didn't worry a bit.
What little load work up I have done has resulted in mostly 1.25" groups at 2550 FPS. FWIW, the best I could get from 250 gr. Remington loads was 2350 FPS from the Mauser and 2330 FPS from the Remington and Ruger rifles. I never ran any of the 200 gr. factory loads over the Chrony. Hope this helps.
Paul B.

PaulB,
Mind if you step aside and give me access to some rope? I think Remington went the 1:16" route because they concluded that the average hunter in the States is velocity mad and would use a faster 200gr projectile in preference to a heavier-slower one ... particularly on deer. They also have "history" with the use of this twist in their 35Remington and 350RemMag. The Remington 350RemMags have such a short magazine box that 250gr are almost not an option. Remington did not see the Whelen for its original design as a substitute to the 375H&H ... and has been handicapped ever since. There's no reason for 9.3x62 hype when the Whelen is using like weight projectiles in the proper 1:12" twist. I'm always fascinated that the 9.3 is looked upon as a "heavy projectile" cartridge and its lighter projectiles ignored, yet the Whelen is seen as the exact opposite. Luckily Ruger has seen the light and placed 1:12" barrels in their 350RemMag ... hopefully they'll do the same with the new 358Win rifles.
Cheers...
Con

Tanoose,

My H&R RMEF .35 Whelen with its 1:16" twist shoots the 250gr Speer spitzer Hot-cor inside an inch at just shy of 2600fps. I was told that the 1:16" wouldn't shoot 250gr spitzer well, but it would shoot the round nose good, so much for what they knew!

Tim

From Paul B

quote:

I think that for the Whelen, a premium bullet is not necessary. I have friends in Canada who use the 250 gr. Speer Hot-core and shoot clean through both shoulders of a moose. Last year one of them drew a tag for Grizzly bear, and he stuck with his 250 gr. Speer load and didn't worry a bit.
What little load work up I have done has resulted in mostly 1.25" groups at 2550 FPS. FWIW, the best I could get from 250 gr. Remington loads was 2350 FPS from the Mauser and 2330 FPS from the Remington and Ruger rifles. I never ran any of the 200 gr. factory loads over the Chrony. Hope this helps.
Paul B.

Paul B,

You are probably right that .358 premium 250 grain bullets aren't really necessary for a clean kill; however, I've found that in my 700 Rem. Classic the Nosler 250 grain partiton consistently turns in groups of less than one inch. I have several that went 5/8" This is at an average velocity of 2,525 fps. As for terminal preformance, it's about what you would expect. So far I've shot 2 moose and 4 bull elk at distances between 60 yards and 280 yards without any problems. It would be interesting to see if that bullet improved your groups.
Rich Elliott

I think the 1-12 and 1-14 twists are much better for all the 35 rifle calibers than the 1-16.

I've never had a faster twist barrel not shoot well, but I have had slow twist barrels not stabalize the heavier bullets.

My ruger 350 rem mag is 1-12 twist, and it shoots 1/2" groups with 225 gr sierras.

Have a 35 Whelen with a 1 in 14 twist. Shoots 1.25 with 250 gr. Remington factory loads and 1 inch with 200 gr.

I am with Rich on this one as far as the 250 grain Speers. I normally get 1"-1'5" type groups with the Speers, But with the 250 grain Partitions, these groups shrink to 0.75"

Of course, 1.5" is just fine for a hunting bullet, but I beleive if we are going to make statements of accuracy of a certain twist, then we should be discussing this in the light of a bullets we are using. What I am trying to say is, if all you get is 1.5" with the Speer bullets, possibly this is as good as it is going to get with these projectiles.

The experiences I have are with 2 Whelens, one a 1:14 and one a 1:16. I cannot honestly say that one rifle (twist) is better then the other. Both are well within hunting accuracy and that's what I care about.

And I know I sound like a broken record (does anyone still listen to broken records) but the 225 grain TSX will do everything you want from this cartridge and then you don't have to worry about twist. Possibly the only thing I wouldn't shoot with this bullet is thick skinned DG.

I must have that same record...LOL.. that bullet works great in my rifle.

Craven

quote:

Originally posted by Con:
PaulB,
Mind if you step aside and give me access to some rope? I think Remington went the 1:16" route because they concluded that the average hunter in the States is velocity mad and would use a faster 200gr projectile in preference to a heavier-slower one ... particularly on deer. They also have "history" with the use of this twist in their 35Remington and 350RemMag. The Remington 350RemMags have such a short magazine box that 250gr are almost not an option. Remington did not see the Whelen for its original design as a substitute to the 375H&H ... and has been handicapped ever since. There's no reason for 9.3x62 hype when the Whelen is using like weight projectiles in the proper 1:12" twist. I'm always fascinated that the 9.3 is looked upon as a "heavy projectile" cartridge and its lighter projectiles ignored, yet the Whelen is seen as the exact opposite. Luckily Ruger has seen the light and placed 1:12" barrels in their 350RemMag ... hopefully they'll do the same with the new 358Win rifles.
Cheers...
Con

You won't get any argument from me on those points. The problem is, I don't think any of the 200 gr. bullets are suitable for elk and bigger. I didn't know Remington was going to make any rifles in .358 Win. browning still usues the 1 in 12" twist in their BLR AFAIK. My original BLR in .358 has a 1 in 11 or 1 in12" twist and is deadly accurate. My Svage 99 also has a 1 in 12" twist and is more accurate than my two Ruger 77s and a Kodiak mauser which all have the 1 in 16" twist. That's a twist in itself, no pun intended, when two lever action rifles will outshoot three bolt action rifles. Must be the Twist is all I can figure.
Paul B.