I have the chance to purchase a new Howa bolt action in 30-06, or a slightly used Model 70 Win. in 30-06 for the same price. I have not got any experiance with either rifle. (ALL my rifles are Rugers or Remingtons). Which will work out to be the better choice? Thanks for your opionions...

I like them both. Winchesters probably have the better resale value. Howas have a slightly better reputation for good accuracy. Weatherby's Vanguards are renamed Hoyas.

I love the design of the Md. 70 action and trigger but the over all quality of the last 15-20 years was pretty spotty. Maybe that's why Winchester is no longer with us, at least not as it used to be.

M-70....even if it's pushfeed!

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
M-70....even if it's pushfeed!

+1


I've owned both. I still own several M70s, but I never plan on buying a Howa again. They are an okay hunting rifle, but to my eye are just lacking that certain something.

Although Howas (re-labelled) are sold as Weatherbys, previously the same models sold, also renamed, as Mossbergs. So the Weatherby cachet adds exactly zero except marketing hype to them in my eyes.

They are dependable rifles. I just prefer the M70s. Even more, the pre-WW II M70s....I prefer their triggers, safeties, bolt angle, stock lines, and more.

I own and shoot a Vanguard (Howa 1500 with Weatherby stamping) in .30-06. The bolt and feeding are smooth, it balances very well, and with handloads and my wobbly marksmanship it can do about 1" groups at 100 yards, usually with 180gr or 200gr bullets. It is a good, functional rifle, but is an import without mystique and heritage.

I don't see a reason to get rid of it, but have thought about getting an M70 as well. With Winchester and its problems, is FN making M70 copies, besides its tactical bolt rifles?

M70 is a standard and is well made, contrary to some folks. I have used them for many years and still own several. I stay with what works.

Shooter,

I don't think you could go wrong with either the Howa or the M70. Which one fits you better?

The Howa has a good reputation for accuracy and very crisp trigger feel. My son loves his 30-06 Howa in 22 inch barrel.

Don't let the hype of the pre 64 M70's cloud your judgement. The recent m70's are not better than the Howa. Buy the one you like the best and shoot it.

Cheers

Interestingly enough, we have two different kinds of hype at work here.

One is marketing hype, ceated by folks such as Weatherby's, to sell good guns (Howas) as if they were super ones. They are good guns, but not exceptional ones. (In my own personal experience.)

The other kind of hype claimed (that of pre-'64 Model 70s) is NOT manufacturer's hype. In case no one noticed, pre-'64 Winchesters haven't been made or sold since 1963. The hype for them is therefore almost totally from end purchasers...those who have used and often still use them. It is the murmur (and sometimes shout) of content from satisfied customers, a fair number of which have used both guns and prefer the older Model 70s. A pretty different thing than marketing hype.


The Howas are good guns; no one is saying they are not. Model 70s are good guns too. And, there are some nicer features on the Model 70, many of us 70-users believe.


Of course you should buy the one you prefer. That hardly even needs to be said. Just don't buy it for Weatherby marketing hype. Write out a list of what you want, price, features, feel, visible quality of workmanship, etc., and go from there. (If a gun of either make doesn't have good, visible, workmanship, don't buy it...another "given"!!)

Good luck. Whichever you buy, I hope it meets your expectations over the long haul.

Tough call.

I have a pushfeed M70 that I rather like, accurate enough (1.5 MOA or so). Nothing special, just a good, functional rifle.

Also own a Vanguard. Vanguard outshoots the M70 without breaking a sweat. Talking 1/2 MOA easily with handloads.

But the M70 is a wood/gloss blued rifle with a worn leather sling, has some real character. The Vanguard is a synthetic/matte rifle, nothing more than a quality-built tool to do a job.

I've shot a few Howa's and M70's...I see no difference accuracy wise or in the fit and finish. Buy which ever one feels better in your hands.

M70!!! The M70 is an icon; the Howa is just a blur in the rifle world. I fogot, did I say M70!!!

1. M70
2. M70
3. M70

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:
1. M70
2. M70
3. M70

While I'm sure a Howa is a good rifle, it's not a Model 70. Just take a look at all the threads on this site to discover why it's a great classic rifle. There's not much the M70 doesn't do well. It was after all voted the rifle of the century!

quote:

Posted 03 December 2008 02:55 Hide Post
M-70....even if it's pushfeed!

I agree.


Cal30

quote:

Originally posted by Cougarz:
It was after all voted the rifle of the century!

Who voted it that?

As much as I like the Model 70 I would have thought that sort of title belonged to the M98...

It was a poll given to the gun magazines writers on which sporting rifle had the most significant impact in the 20th century.

From Wikipedia

"In 1936, Winchester introduced the Model 70 bolt action rifle to the American market. The Model 70 was largely based on the Model 54, and is today still highly regarded by shooters and is often called "The Rifleman's Rifle." In 1999 Shooting Times magazine named the Model 70 the "Bolt-action Rifle of the Century."

We sell a lot of Howa/Weatherby Vanguards at work. Very nice triggers, and nicely accurate, too. I just wouldn't want to pack one hunting, though, as they are about 7 1/2 pounds without scope. I'll take an M70 Featherweight any day.

Well if a guy has to ask... then buy the Howa...

its a fine rifle, but it isn't no Model 70...

one's a cheby, ones a Cadillac...

quote:

Well if a guy has to ask... then buy the Howa...its a fine rifle, but it isn't no Model 70...one's a cheby, ones a Cadillac...

Well, the "cheby" is a very poplular fixture in today's market. The "Cadillac" is/was a product of a defunct company. Must be a message in there some where. ???

Hype will keep sales lingering on for some folks but it won't maintain a profitable market forever, performance does. Ask Detroit. (A Cadillac, anyone?)

I guess that describes just how ill the market is!! BTW "defunct" Cadillac Escalades are selling not too badly around here, even now.

Remember, about 85% or more of the folks who were working when the housing bubble burst still HAVE jobs. Even during the great depression of the 1930's unemployment ran about 15% nationwide. Pockets were much worse, but some areas were much better off, too.

quote:

during the great depression of the 1930's unemployment ran about 15% nationwide.

That was in the early days of the depression. After some eight years of FDR's socialism "fixes", it had risen to about 25%. And the "dust bowl" period had started so things got even worse!

What a few people will pay for anything is no indication of it's true market value. A couple of years ago some people were paying over $2K for a flat screen TV. After satuarating the sucker market, the prices have come WAY down, closer perhaps to their real market value.

I've known quite a few shooters who fancied themselves "collectors" in that they rarely bought anything in current production but would wait for production to cease and prices took a brief jump. THEN they had to get one, "'Cause they ain't making them no more, you know!"

The Mod 70 IS a good rifle, most of the time, but so are others. I sorta prefer them and old FN Mausers but I buy 700s for out of the box performance without haveing to spend a bundle to get them up-dated and new installing new barrels!

quote:

Originally posted by Jim C. <><:

quote:

during the great depression of the 1930's unemployment ran about 15% nationwide.

That was in the early days of the depression. After some eight years of FDR's socialism "fixes", it had risen to about 25%. And the "dust bowl" period had started so things got even worse!

Beg to disagree. Regionally it did, but not nationwide. I lived through the depression and remember it all too well. Doesn't matter much anyway. We may well see worse this time, and social shifts which can't be remedied afterward. We probably should have a lot of corporate officers headed for jail, along with come congressional oversight people and administration members, but that won't likely happen.
-----------------------

What a few people will pay for anything is no indication of it's true market value.

I certainly agree with that 100 %.
-------------------------

The Mod 70 IS a good rifle, most of the time, but so are others. I sorta prefer them and old FN Mausers but I buy 700s for out of the box performance without haveing to spend a bundle to get them up-dated and new installing new barrels!.

Me too. I certainly agree there are all kinds of good rifles out there. Heck, one of my favorites is an old Newton that is now on its third barrel! Anyway, as I believe I stated before, there is nothing in particular wrong with a Howa, whether you call it a Mossberg or a Weatherby or a Smith & Wesson. They are good basic rifles. There are just some things I prefer on the old Model 70s...like the rearward sweep of the bolt handle, the safety mechanism, and the stock shape. I bought all of mine while they were still being made, including some I bought new during the '50s and '60s.

Some other folks who learned to love them by using them are among their strongest fans too. Before the gas guns took over, they won very often at Camp Perry, while Remington did very seldom (like "never" 'til Mitch Maxberry did it with one in the late '80s/early '90s). Remingtons were accurate enough, but shooters didn't like their rapid fire handling as well as the 70's.

As to replacing barrels, maybe that's so on the NEWER model 70s. I never found that necessary on ANY of my old Model 70's until they had a least a few thousand rounds through them.

Anyway, if I was to have to choose between an old Model 70 and a new Weatherby Howa today, I would take the Model 70 every time. Just my opinion and I don't expect anyone else to feel obliged to agree, but that IS my opinion.

I just got to examine a S&W M1500 Howa rifle.

The rifle is smooth, bolt lift a little heavier than a M70, sear blocking safety.

Every part that I could look at showed excellent machine work. I was unable to determine if the receiver was forged, milled, or cast. I think it may be milled, I could not find the tell tale casting bubbles.

The receiver was flat bottomed, which is easy to bed.

It does have a SAKO type extractor on a shrouded bolt head. It looked like it copied the Rem 700 breeching into the barrel, but is not as strong due to the cut in the bolt head for the extractor.

Still, that would be better breeching than any M70, push feed or claw.

I think it is an excellent action.

But, I prefer a M70. I prefer the firing pin blocking safety, the ability to remove the firing pin/cocking piece, and the easy bolt lift of the M70. I like the older M70 trigger mechanism, it has proven durable and reliable.