My most accurate rifle ever & which I have shot is the Tikka LSA 55 - by a long way! The 222 Rem groups 5 shots in .5 to .75 inches day in d out wit its pet load....I am an average shot. I have owned a few Sakos which will group well but not so consistently and so small.

The factory bedding steel block is a unique system that I have not seen in any other rifle. It does not have the usual recoil lug in the front ring but just a 2mm raised square & the steel U channel fits on it & becomes the recoil lug in the stock.

quote:

Originally posted by Rub Line:
Since the thread is already going this way, I'll pose the question, are Savages really any more accurate than the rest of the production guns out there? I had one and it shot alright, but like stated above, my Browining A-bolt printed some awesome groups as well. I have a factory remington in 222 that will rival most benchrest guns. I don't buy new guns and I'm not partial to any single brand of firearm. However, the savage that I did have shot alright but it felt cheap, the plastic follower looked like something out of a toy gun, the bore was rough as a cob and it didn't extract or eject worth a crap. I sometimes wonder why Savage has this mystical following of being the most accurate cheap guns on the market.

I'm not trying to start anything here, if you love your Savages then more power to you! I'm just saying that if you want accuracy, you don't have to buy a Savage.

Furthermore, I didn't vote because I've owned a number of highly accurate rifles. Some needed some tweaking and some didn't, but it would be unfair to say one is more accurate than another.

Rubline, as I’m sitting here recovering from double hernia surgery and bored let me postulate the following. While I do so, please keep in mind that I am not an elitist. I have owned many inexpensive rifles and cheap scopes as well as semi and custom rifles and good glass. I try to keep in mind always, this is for fun.

Say a fellow was fortunate to have inherited a 22 semi auto rimfire, a pump shotgun and a semi-auto Remington rifle in 243. He shoots factory ammo in the 243. He goes to a public range right before deer season every couple years to “sight in” his rifle. Groups, if he can get them are around 2.5”.Fast forward a few years, he’s making more money and decides to get into reloading. He hears that bolt action rifles are more accurate than semi autos. Well, he is making more money, but can’t afford a rifle and a quality scope also. However they have this used Savage pretty reasonable. So he opts for the Savage, a “mart” quality scope and weaver rings. The rifle may be bore-sighted before he leaves the store, or he may do it himself. Over his hunting and shooting career he may buy a couple more rifles.
.
Or you have a guy that has been shooting and reloading for a couple years. When he first started, he went out and paid $175 for an old Savage F112V heavy barreled rifle in 22-250, pre accu-trigger, mounted a Simmons 6 x 24 “44mag riflescope. He has found that it would shoot 40 gr. V-maxes into 1 ragged hole. In the next couple of years he happens to buy a Remington 700 ADL in 30-06. And a Winchester push feed featherweight in 270 Remington, iron sights and sporter barrel. He scopes these also, maybe reloads for them or shoots factory ammo. The Remington in 30-06 and the Winchester in 270 shoot , say 1.50” groups at 100 yds. Yet his heavy barreled Savage in 22-250 will shoot a half inch group, one out of four times if he’s lucky. So it’s the most accurate of his rifles, in his opinion.

Then you have a guy that invests in quality equipment, reloads with care, buys good glass, has one heavy barreled rifle that has been accurized and shoots great. Say it’s a Remington 700 Sendero.

Finally, you have a guy that owns a number of very accurate firearms, reloads for a number of chamberings, shoots every couple weeks and basically has a clue. He may own Browning, Winchester, Remington and Savage rifles.

Now all four happen to be together in a bar, and in the course of conversation, the topic of how accurate Savage rifles are comes up for discussion. Who would be the most qualified to say. If a vote was taken, two would say Savage, one might say Remington, the other might say Browning. Well, a plurality of votes would indicate that Savage rifles were the most accurate.
Now is that an empirical test, or just an opinion that was reinforced by two votes vs. one and one.

Of course its not empirical test, To do a test that was empirical and had a control would be beyond my financial abilities and that of most organizations. It would seem one would have to take into account the total number of rifles and models produced by each manufacturer and get a statistical sample. Each would have to be fired using the same ammo by the same person at different yardages in a controlled environment, then tally the results. Then there would still be the cries of bias.
So, what you end up with is opinion.
Some voice their opinions more loudly than others. Savage shooters tend to like their rifles a lot. Many are very vocal. Some of us have owned a couple of very accurate Savage rifles. Some of us may not have Savage rifles in our possession at this time. Not because they aren’t/weren't accurate, but because something else caused us to part with them. In the last two years I've sold a couple Savages that would basically shoot one hole, multiple times back to back. However, I've also sold Kimbers, Weatherbys, Remingtons and Sakos that would shoot on a par with most any Savage. Several were amazingly accurate. Why did I part with them, I was just one rifle away from being happy at the time.
This poll is an excellent example of bias and opinion. That’s the reason I usually don’t participate in these polls, unless it is in jest.
Hence my comment,
If the “only” thing I was interested in was accuracy, all my rifles would be Savage. No basis, just opinion.

Best
GWB

quote:

Originally posted by Geedubya:

quote:

Originally posted by Rub Line:
Since the thread is already going this way, I'll pose the question, are Savages really any more accurate than the rest of the production guns out there? I had one and it shot alright, but like stated above, my Browining A-bolt printed some awesome groups as well. I have a factory remington in 222 that will rival most benchrest guns. I don't buy new guns and I'm not partial to any single brand of firearm. However, the savage that I did have shot alright but it felt cheap, the plastic follower looked like something out of a toy gun, the bore was rough as a cob and it didn't extract or eject worth a crap. I sometimes wonder why Savage has this mystical following of being the most accurate cheap guns on the market.

I'm not trying to start anything here, if you love your Savages then more power to you! I'm just saying that if you want accuracy, you don't have to buy a Savage.

Furthermore, I didn't vote because I've owned a number of highly accurate rifles. Some needed some tweaking and some didn't, but it would be unfair to say one is more accurate than another.

Rubline, as I’m sitting here recovering from double hernia surgery and bored let me postulate the following. While I do so, please keep in mind that I am not an elitist. I have owned many inexpensive rifles and cheap scopes as well as semi and custom rifles and good glass. I try to keep in mind always, this is for fun.

Say a fellow was fortunate to have inherited a 22 semi auto rimfire, a pump shotgun and a semi-auto Remington rifle in 243. He shoots factory ammo in the 243. He goes to a public range right before deer season every couple years to “sight in” his rifle. Groups, if he can get them are around 2.5”.Fast forward a few years, he’s making more money and decides to get into reloading. He hears that bolt action rifles are more accurate than semi autos. Well, he is making more money, but can’t afford a rifle and a quality scope also. However they have this used Savage pretty reasonable. So he opts for the Savage, a “mart” quality scope and weaver rings. The rifle may be bore-sighted before he leaves the store, or he may do it himself. Over his hunting and shooting career he may buy a couple more rifles.
.
Or you have a guy that has been shooting and reloading for a couple years. When he first started, he went out and paid $175 for an old Savage F112V heavy barreled rifle in 22-250, pre accu-trigger, mounted a Simmons 6 x 24 “44mag riflescope. He has found that it would shoot 40 gr. V-maxes into 1 ragged hole. In the next couple of years he happens to buy a Remington 700 ADL in 30-06. And a Winchester push feed featherweight in 270 Remington, iron sights and sporter barrel. He scopes these also, maybe reloads for them or shoots factory ammo. The Remington in 30-06 and the Winchester in 270 shoot , say 1.50” groups at 100 yds. Yet his heavy barreled Savage in 22-250 will shoot a half inch group, one out of four times if he’s lucky. So it’s the most accurate of his rifles, in his opinion.

Then you have a guy that invests in quality equipment, reloads with care, buys good glass, has one heavy barreled rifle that has been accurized and shoots great. Say it’s a Remington 700 Sendero.

Finally, you have a guy that owns a number of very accurate firearms, reloads for a number of chamberings, shoots every couple weeks and basically has a clue. He may own Browning, Winchester, Remington and Savage rifles.

Now all four happen to be together in a bar, and in the course of conversation, the topic of how accurate Savage rifles are comes up for discussion. Who would be the most qualified to say. If a vote was taken, two would say Savage, one might say Remington, the other might say Browning. Well, a plurality of votes would indicate that Savage rifles were the most accurate.
Now is that an empirical test, or just an opinion that was reinforced by two votes vs. one and one.

Of course its not empirical test, To do a test that was empirical and had a control would be beyond my financial abilities and that of most organizations. It would seem one would have to take into account the total number of rifles and models produced by each manufacturer and get a statistical sample. Each would have to be fired using the same ammo by the same person at different yardages in a controlled environment, then tally the results. Then there would still be the cries of bias.
So, what you end up with is opinion.
Some voice their opinions more loudly than others. Savage shooters tend to like their rifles a lot. Many are very vocal. Some of us have owned a couple of very accurate Savage rifles. Some of us may not have Savage rifles in our possession at this time. Not because they aren’t/weren't accurate, but because something else caused us to part with them. In the last two years I've sold a couple Savages that would basically shoot one hole, multiple times back to back. However, I've also sold Kimbers, Weatherbys, Remingtons and Sakos that would shoot on a par with most any Savage. Several were amazingly accurate. Why did I part with them, I was just one rifle away from being happy at the time.
This poll is an excellent example of bias and opinion. That’s the reason I usually don’t participate in these polls, unless it is in jest.
Hence my comment,
If the “only” thing I was interested in was accuracy, all my rifles would be Savage. No basis, just opinion.

Best
GWB

I like the way you think.

Tikka T3 in 260 Remington, this inexpensive rifle is very accurate, out of the box first group shot was .298 inches.

Gidday Guys,

I am stunned with how few of you have shot Sakos or Tikkas. If you have ever shot one of these beauties you would know what I mean.

They are consistently accurate shooters straight out of the box. I have yet to see one that isn't scarily accurate.

I do understand that they are more expensive than Rems, Wins or Savages and there does tend to be a distrust of gear not made in the US but crikey the facts speak for themselves.

Happy Hunting

Hamish

Another vote for Savage here....ugly critters but they all seem to just plain shoot no matter what the caliber.

quote:

Originally posted by oldun:
Tikka T3 in 260 Remington, this inexpensive rifle is very accurate, out of the box first group shot was .298 inches.

Perhaps I should have said that this group was fired without the aid of a bench, a rest, or a bipod. It was done just me in the prone position with the rifle in my hands.

Yeah, I took my tikka 270 out today. with loads it likes, it can easily achieve the 1/4" mark if you can shoot that good. I was really shaky and unsteady today at the range and it still put 5 shots in .75"
Dare I say the tikkas are very close to the accuracy of a cooper

Tell us more about the Cooper rifle - how they are made, looks, what caliber you have, etc. We do not get them here in SA. Perhaps a nice photo would be appreciated. What do does a Cooper rifle cost.

Thanking you.
Warrior

Sako and Sauer

quote:

Originally posted by Hamish:

I do understand that they are more expensive than Rems, Wins or Savages and there does tend to be a distrust of gear not made in the US but crikey the facts speak for themselves.

Happy Hunting

Hamish

Sako has moved upscale over hear recently with their Classic and Bavarians costing $2000. That moves them out of reach for a lot of hunters.

The Tikkas are just too fugly for me. Just my opinion.

Sort of a loaded question.
Those who have shot few rifles will naturally have a smaller window or experience.

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
Tell us more about the Cooper rifle - how they are made, looks, what caliber you have, etc. We do not get them here in SA. Perhaps a nice photo would be appreciated. What do does a Cooper rifle cost.

Thanking you.
Warrior

Warrior, I’ll take a stab at a reply.

I first became aware of Cooper Rifles in the mid 1990’s. Kind of an evolutionary thing. I started collecting heavy barreled 22 caliber centerfire rifles about that time. Somehow I came upon Todd Kindler’s Small Caliber News. The proprietor of AR , Saeed was on that magazine’s technical team and how I became aware of this website. That’s another story in itself. Todd was a big fan of small calibers, and beautiful wood. He was always featuring stories of small caliber single shot rifles by a manufacturer named Cooper. At that time, $400 for a rifle and $50 for a scope was a major commitment for me. No way I could afford even a low end model they had just introduced, a Cooper Varminter at $850. Wasn’t anyplace else you could go and buy a semi-custom rifle in say 17 HeBee, 17 Ackley Hornet, 22 K Hornet. I had to settle for running across an occasional Bullberry barrel in 17 Mach IV or something like that that would fit my contender. Cooper also started evolving. Model 38, model 21, and model 22. However other than their rimfire 22’s none of their rifles were repeaters. That doesn’t bother me. I like single shots, and my style of hunting rarely requires more than one shot. Seems they were very concerned about their ½” guarantee. They weren’t sure that they could build a repeater with a magazine cut-out that would hold that benchmark. A few years ago they came out with their Model 52, which featured non magnum, long action cartridges with .473” bolt face. So, 25-06 through 338-06 became available in several stock styles. They also began including synthetic stocks in their inventory. A couple years later they came out with their Model 54. This would be the short action cartridges such as 22-250, 220 swift, 250 Savage, the 308 family. This year they came out with the magnums in .532 bolt face. So if you want a semi-custom to full custom 300 H&H, you can order it, or just buy one off the shelf.
I have 17HeBee, 17 Mach IV, 17 Remington, 20 Vartarg, 20 Tactical, 22 Hornet, 22-250, 25-06 6.5 x 284, 7mm-08, and 308 Win IIRC.
Here is a link to their website. You might even do a google search of the company history.

http://www.cooperfirearms.com/our_rifles_new.php



I do not know what the export rules are. I do not know what your cost would be. All of the Coopers I own I have bought used. I am typically patient and actively look for good deals so all but one of the Coopers that I own I purchased between $900 and $1250. For the accuracy, quality of fit and finish, and triggers, I think they are a bargain. Cooper sells through distributors who have a MSRP. Not much variation on that. As stated before, I buy them used from folks here and on Gunbroker.

Here are four different Cooper models.

The model 21 is usually chambered for the .378 bolt face cartridges such as the 222/223 derivatives. Here is mine in the model 21 Classic. It is chambered in Todd Kindler’s Tactical 20. The Tac 20 is a 223 parent case necked down to .204 caliber. It has a 1in 12 twist. I usually load bullets of 32 to 40 gr. at velocities from 3,400 fps to 4,000 fps. It shoots flatter than a 22-250 with less drift. I have killed deer, hogs and varmints with the 40 gr. V-max and 24.5 gr. of Reloader 10X in this round.


Cooper Model 21 Classic

Another Cooper I own is their Montana Varminter. It is a minor upgrade from their Varminter. This one is also a single shot It is a model 22, chambered for the 6.5-284
Chambering.


Cooper model 22, Montana Varminter, 6.5 x 284

I am a fan of the 6.5 bore. I load this round with 130 gr. Nosler Accubonds for muzzle velocities of 3,000 fps and sub moa groups. Not shot any deer with it yet, but it is deadly on hogs.

A third rifle, also a model 22 in their “Varmint Extreme” variation, chambered in 308 Winchester. The Varmint extreme is a wood, checkering, and metal finish upgrade from the Montana Varminter. It is also a single shot. This particular rifle had a factory brake, which is not very common on Coopers. That, taken with the wood, the caliber, the fact that I did not have a “Varmint Extreme”, and the price, I couldn’t refuse.


Cooper model 22, Varmint extreme, 308 Win.

This fourth rifle is an example of their long action repeater in a model 52.
The rifle below is their Jackson Game Rifle. This particular rifle has an uprade option, being a 26” fluted stainless barrel. It is chambered in 25-06. This is probably my favorite stock style, with the Classic being my second choice and the Varminter, my third choice. Once again, due to the options and price, I couldn’t resist.


Cooper Model 52 Jackson Game Rifle, 25-06.

Before it is all over I will probably invest in a couple model 54’s and I may even break down a order a model 56 in 300 H&H in either the custom classic or Jackson Game. I’m patient and if I can find them used at the right price I’ll jump on them.
Perhaps this may answer some of your questions.

Best
GWB

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
Tell us more about the Cooper rifle - how they are made, looks, what caliber you have, etc. We do not get them here in SA. Perhaps a nice photo would be appreciated. What do does a Cooper rifle cost.

Thanking you.
Warrior

Cooper rifles are nice and expensive. They are a good deal for what you get if you can afford them. The base models start for around $1600. They are solid, look nice, well built, come with a target with load data and a group shot at 50 yards that is usually one hole. Not a ragged hole, but almost perfect, caliber size, single hole.
most models you can find are the fancy wood for around $1900 and the wood on cooper rifle are very nice. They also come in a lot of calibers you can't get in other rifles such as 280AI, 30-06AI, ect.. I almost bought a nice french walnut cooper, but I just couldn't afford it. and went with a tikka T3 lite that shoots almost as well.

Everyone has preferences in what rifles they like and have had good experiences with. Here's mine. For bolt actions, I've owned 3 rem 700, 4 ruger, 2 savage, 2 tikka, 1 winchester, 2 CZ.
My most consistently accurate have been Ruger and Tikka followed by winchester and CZ followed by remington(2 out of 3 rifles shot horribly) and savage which I can't judge because I don't like their triggers or how they fit me. Savage has a good rep for accuracy though. I just cant warm up to the fin sticking out of the trigger.

Gohip,

I'm somewhat shy of a dozen Coopers now. All were bought used. All but two were bought with bases at prices between $900 and $1,100. Three classics, three varminters two montana varminters, one Varmint extreme, with another on the way in, and one Jackson Game. The Jackson game pictured above was purchased for $1,250 with bases and rings and the price inlcuded 5 boxes of premium ammunition (Say min of $200).
Only one Varmint extreme was over $1250. If you keep your eyes open it's amazing what you can find. I'm probably more patient than most. It took me 10 years to buy my Model 21 Varminter in 20 Vartarg. However I did get it and got it at my price.

Best

GWB

Remington XR100 in .204 Ruger.

My most accurate factory rifle has been a Remington .257 Weatherby. Honest to God .35 groups at 100 yards. Over the years I have bought some very expensive custom rifles and the Remington outshoots them all.

quote:

Originally posted by WBT:
My most accurate factory rifle has been a Remington .257 Weatherby. Honest to God .35 groups at 100 yards. Over the years I have bought some very expensive custom rifles and the Remington outshoots them all.

A friend had a Remington 788 and nothing I built or bought would out shoot it!

The most accurate rifle I ever owned was a pre-64 308 win. I have to add a Rem 700 in 22-250 made in 1971 that I had. That gun could put two in the same hole if you could hold it that well.

quote:

Originally posted by Geedubya:
Gohip,

I'm somewhat shy of a dozen Coopers now. All were bought used. All but two were bought with bases at prices between $900 and $1,100. Three classics, three varminters two montana varminters, one Varmint extreme, with another on the way in, and one Jackson Game. The Jackson game pictured above was purchased for $1,250 with bases and rings and the price inlcuded 5 boxes of premium ammunition (Say min of $200).
Only one Varmint extreme was over $1250. If you keep your eyes open it's amazing what you can find. I'm probably more patient than most. It took me 10 years to buy my Model 21 Varminter in 20 Vartarg. However I did get it and got it at my price.

Best

GWB

did you find yours in stores or online? I haven't seen a single used cooper in the 3 gun stores here, but maybe gunbroker. There was an absolutely beautiful wood stocked 280 in scheels. I almost couldn't resist the wood was so nice. One of the best pieces of wood I've seen on any cooper.

Over the years, I have been very fortunate to own several rifles that shot very accurately. The first was a .222 cal in a Winchester model 70. It shot 1/4 inch groups 24/7 rain or shine.

The next was a much larger caliber rifle that I hunted with for 20 years. A Belgium Browning in a .300 Win mag caliber. A safari type rifle that loved anything above a 165 grn bullet. It shot 190 grn Sierra's into .500-MOA.

I have a Kliengunther .270 Winchester that shoots 5 shots into less than the size of a dime at 100 yds. Also a model 70 .338 Win mag that shoots .850-MOA with 200 grn Accubonds for 3 shots.

We did purchase 4 of those Savage rifles in the model 12 in various calibers and I was really impressed with accuracy of all of them. 204 Ruger, .223, another .223 and a .243. Now with factory ammo, they all shoot 1-MOA or less from the bench. I am some what still amazed at this feat from a factory production gun that is priced so a working man can afford one.

quote:

Originally posted by Rub Line:
Since the thread is already going this way, I'll pose the question, are Savages really any more accurate than the rest of the production guns out there?

IMO no, Savage rifles aren't any more accurate than most other production rifles. That said I don't think Savage is any less accurate than higher priced production rifles. Other than the Marlin X rifles and the T/C Venture I can't think of other rifles that delilver as good of accuracy at the same price point as Savage.

I own at the moment 4 Savage rifles and they would be some of the first to leave if I ever felt the need to part with some rifles. They just don't have the style and appeal to me as some of my other rifles. Plus they aren't any more accurate in my hands than any of my ohter bolt actions.

Does 'out of the box' mean before or after handload development?

That question is unanswerable...Accuracy has to do with individual rifles, there are good ones and bad ones in all the brands mention..Same for barrels..My most accurate all time rifle is a bench rest chambered Sako but that doesn't mean a thing. My next most accurate rifle is a tie between my Win pre 64 300 H&H and my old custom stocked Ruger 77 in 30-06..or what about my old Jefferys "sweet thang" that shot 1" 4 shot groups at 75 yards, but it would not compete at a bench rest shoot or compare to some of my varmint rifles..the question is loaded to the gills.

I've experienced the best out of box performance with Sako, to include accuracy, when compared to numerous samples of other common production rifles. I've seen some bug hole shooters straight out the box of other makes, but Sako has been more consistent.

Flip side, bench accuracy alone can be a very poor measure for grading a solid and reliable hunting rifle. As an example, my friend spent a ton of money on a very accurate Cooper that is problematic and stays broke. His inexpensive Ruger on the other hand always functions and always shoots accurate enough to down hunted game.

Best

Not on your list, but Anschutz. Two different rifles; the most accurate I've ever shot this side of full on custom target rifles. Not even close.

Second is Sako.

-nosualc

Steyr (everytime!!)

Browning A-Bolts. My 270 would shoot 3/4" groups at 200 yds with factory ammo. I put three in the same hole with my 338 wm one time. My friend was spotting me and after the second shot he said I missed the target. Upon further investigation we saw that it enlarged the first hole. The third shot confirmed it. It was off center just slightly. However, I have to say that is with the BOSS and some bench time with factory ammo to get it tuned just right.

quote:

Originally posted by JabaliHunter:
Does 'out of the box' mean before or after handload development?

Sure that's allowed as I'm a reloader myself

Tikka or Sako.

odd as it is I had a boatpaddle Ruger 338 that literally shot cloverleafs out of the box with Winchester factory ammo... and of course like a dumb-ass I sold it for something 'better'...uggg

quote:

Originally posted by WestCoaster:
Tikka or Sako.

I too will admit a certain fondness for fondling, hunting and shooting Sakos.

Some that I have known that had what it took to make me smile.

GWB

Scoped hunting rifle: Steyr SBS in 6.5x55. Remarkable rifle.

Iron sights: Finnish M39 B barreled rifle in 7.62x54r

Savage.

I agree they are butt-assed ugly (most of them).

But they damn sure shoot.

Tikka T3; I have 2, my friends have them as well. Best value, best accuracy, best trigger, etc out there for a factory rifle.

So that's where they went Geedubya, was wondering who had all the Sako's!
I'm surprised that Sako/Tikka didn't feature higher. I'm a registered Firearms Dealer in the UK and out of the box it's hard to beat the Finnish rifles for accuracy and price

quote:

Originally posted by Geedubya:
I continue to say,

If the only thing I was interested in was accuracy, all my rifles would be Savage.

GWB

Have to agree w you. Ugly as sin, but whatever they do works, as they just shoot damn well!

Im not suprised to see Remington doing so well, but like a few others, Im a Mauser freak because their reliability is second to none.

Im almost embarrased to say, but thinking of the most accurate "out of the box" rifles Ive ever had, my thoughts go back to my old weatherby Vanguard. She was a sweet shooter, so thats how I voted.

quote:

Originally posted by Haggis:
I'm surprised that Sako/Tikka didn't feature higher. I'm a registered Firearms Dealer in the UK and out of the box it's hard to beat the Finnish rifles for accuracy and price

I made the same poll in Denmark and Norway, there Sako and Tikka are doing great

http://www.nordisk-forum.dk/vi...pic.php?f=14&t=34483

http://www.kammeret.no/forum/v...pic.php?f=14&t=55385

Before doing anything to it, my most accurate rifle was a Tikka .243, but the flimsy magazine wouldn't feed rounds even when new, and new mags were riduculouly expensive, so I dumped it.

Second is a CZ full-stock 6.5x55. Can't believe a full-stock gun is this accurate!

I had a Sako 7mmRM that must have been the only inaccurate Sako ever made. Sold it, too.

Steve