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...this kind Both rifles love 58.1 grain of Varget and a 250 TSX from rebarreled VZ-24 with a douglass barrel from my rebarreled mosin nagant at 200 yards, I think there was a little bit of luck in this 200 yard group. at 100 yards Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | ||
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Nice set of groups! Very realistic. Shoot Safe, Mike NRA Endowment Member | |||
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I'm always impressed by the accuracy of your 9.3s. Even though I know exactly what's in them. | |||
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Tanker, Not Bad----FOR MODAFIED CHOKE! | |||
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Tanker, What was your rebored 9.3 originally? Roger ___________________________ I'm a trophy hunter - until something better comes along. *we band of 45-70ers* | |||
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I get an inch with a 1/2 inch on a good day with both of mine 3 shot groups, and a inch to a inch and a half with most 5 shot. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Bit if my 9.3’s are about the same as Rat’s. Mostly depends on the loose nut behind the trigger. DRSS Kreighoff 470 NE Valmet 412 30/06 & 9.3x74R | |||
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Hasher, How many pounds of torque do you put on the neck of the nut behind the trigger? Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I find that very few 9.3s will shoot under an inch at 100 yards. Most more than that; not that that kind of accuracy is necessary anyway. Barrel quality, precise installation, and good hand loading techniques are most important. MD obviously knows how to manage all of the above. Shooter; less so. | |||
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Mike, For you I’d just use a long stick. DRSS Kreighoff 470 NE Valmet 412 30/06 & 9.3x74R | |||
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I have two rifles chambered in 93x62 and both love Varget with a variety of bullets. | |||
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My best accuracy comes with RL-17, also the most velocity. I don;t understand why one buys a 9x3x62, or a 35 Whelan and shoots light bullets with poor SD..Its ment to shoot 286 and 300 gr. bullets otherwise go with a high vel cartridge..NOt that I care what one does, but its a nice conversation piece for discussion. Ive shot the 250 gr, Accubonds on game a few times.. I like the Accubonds but prefer the 286 Nosler partition and the 300 gr. RN foreignt bullets I have on hand and not sure of the make but they are dandy and had good luck with the 320 gr Woodeighs for a time. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I mostly disregard SDs as they are pretty irrelevant. At best, it can be used as a proxy for similar penetration characteristics for similarly constructed bullets. It is simply a relative measurement of weight to diameter which in fact is all SD is. I don't understand why a 225 grain bullet in a 35 Whelen is not considered light for caliber with an SD = .251 but a 250 grn in .366 is considered light with an SD = .267 In my mind it is about balancing to an optimal combination of penetration, reliable expansion, accuracy, and range. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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It's now 4 January, and my damn head has hurt every day since I flew to South Africa six months ago. This is a great irritation and has eroded my normally bubbly personality. Anyway, keep this is mind when reading the reply. I have used a 9.3x62 for >20 years and it shoots well, and I believe it to be unfair to single out the 9.3x62 and ask about accuracy potential. I have had the privilege to build and range test most cartridges from the .22 Hornet to the .460 WBY and have learned that cartridge design is not the limiting factor in accuracy. You also need a quality barrel, good and proper stock, and, incidentally, be able to shoot straight. When these criteria are met, most cartridges are capable of excellent accuracy. So why ask? The 9.3x62 will never be as accurate as a 6mm PPC. Neither will any legitimate sporting cartridge shooting hunting bullets from a man-portable rifle. These days, if the rifle maker, ammunition loader, and shooter do their part, the stars will magically align and all will be good for a rifleman regardless of the specific cartridge. Roger | |||
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Roger, You have misunderstood the nature of my title, it was said somewhat sarcastically. I find almost every chambering and rifle to be able to deliver very good accuracy with minimal effort and proper hand load development. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Mike, I apologize profusely. Blame it on my head. My medical condition which is technically known as FUBAR has played hell with my head and, at times, turned me into a grumpy old bastard. I should have known better, but either way the 9.3x62 is a great cartridge. Roger | |||
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The 9.3x62 has a similar bore diameter to case capacity ratio as the 308 Win. Load it with powders that 308 likes at similar pressures, good bullets, good platform, and you get excellent accuracy. Ain’t no flies on it with the lower pressure loads, and some slow loads go less than MOA. Not rocket science. Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | |||
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Any rifle, in any caliber, built with quality components and care will shoot very accurately. I have built rifles up to the 460 Weatherby Magnum. Every single one of them shoots groups touching. I have also been pleasantly surprised by new factory rifles. They shoot, in general, much better than those made a few years ago. | |||
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I believe accuracy is a function of barrel quality, ammunition, action/trigger, caliber in that order assuming the barrel is trued to the action. With a quality barrel in a bolt action rifle any caliber should be ablet to shoot .5 MOA. Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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Sorry Cougarz, I have not been on here in awhile. This particular rebore was originally an Interarms Mark X mauser in 30-06 that I restocked and hunted with on my only trip to Africa. After returning home, I had it rebored by JES in Oregon. Not for any particular need or shortcomings in its original configuration. The 30-06 did everything I asked of it including one shot kills on 6 animals including Impala, Zebra, Gemsbock, Red Hartebeest, Eland and Blue Wildebeest. I am a fan of the 9.3 x62 decided to make the change ,just because. | |||
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Thanks for the response. Reason I asked is I have an M1917 Enfield 30-06 that was nicely sporterized probably in the 1920’s or 30’s. I want to keep original other than reboring to 9.3x62mm. I don’t want to do if it means messing with the original Pacific banded front sight. Roger ___________________________ I'm a trophy hunter - until something better comes along. *we band of 45-70ers* | |||
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Check with Jesse at JES Reboring. He can probably do and his price and turn around time are excellent. I have had 3 or 4 done by him and they all have shot most excellent. He is a nice guy to deal with. Best of luck on your project. | |||
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I always use a new barrel unless someone wants to retain a specific feature. And I have had JES rebore some. My comment about most 9.3s will not group into one inch stands; but remember that in the entire world population of 9.3s, that will include all the Swedish Moose rifles on the market, both 96 and FN98 actioned ones, with long, and usually worn, throats, some with skinny barrels, and oil soaked beech stocks. And antique, 4x scopes with heavy reticles, not crisp on the edges. I have had a bunch of them. Those must be included in the sample size. I didn't say, new custom (Douglas) barrels, with tuned actions, custom stocks, finely tuned hand loads, Timney triggers, did I? You guys are spoiled. RA, I hope you get well. | |||
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Mike:
DPCD : I didn't say, new custom (Douglas) barrels, with tuned actions, custom stocks, finely tuned hand loads, Timney triggers, did I Ya! Douglass barrels. My first Mauser build had a 26-inch Douglass XX in No. 4 contour. 257 Roberts. Build in the 1960's, this rifle would consistently put 87 grain Speers in 1/2" or less. 4x Weaver with post. And it had a Timney. This was my first serious Whitetail gun, way down in the Georgia coastal swamps. Put a lot of meat in Dad's freezer. Think I still have a target around somewhere, will take a look in the shop files. | |||
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It boils down to ballistic adult masturbation! zits just another gun that cheers one caliber or another as if it made a world of difference..When I get embroiled in gun rummy, go shoot an elk the first chance I get with my 25-35 or a hog wtih my 222 and bingo Im back in the real world just like an eskimo and his 223 on polar bear.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Mike, have you shot the 286g Partitions or the 320g Woodlieghs yet? Crazy accurate and on big moose it makes them throw all four hooves up in the air upon impact. | |||
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Scott, I am very much a fan of copper bullets and moderate weight for caliber. I understand 286 is the "historical" weight but have never seen the need for anything over 250 grains in this cartridge. A 250 grn with a decent BC turns the 9,3 into a ~350 yard cartridge. I may need to shoot an antelope with one Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I ruined way to much meat on a moose with a 250g tax and some really bad shooting one time, I quit that weight bullet in that cartridge right there. Your welcome to decide for yourself if the bullet or the guy pulling the trigger was more responsible. The 320g is fun. One big thump and the target does cartwheels. | |||
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If you are going to use a 250gr. bullet in a 9.3 why not slip back in diameter and use a .35 Whelen----cheaper bullets/better selection, cheaper brass/easier to make and a better selection of rifles. If you want to play with the big boys----use big bullets! Hip | |||
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1. it ain't about bullet weight, it's about penetration and wound channel 2.The 9,3 has a higher CDI factor 3. I own the coolest 9,3 on the planet, plus a 9,3 on VZ-24 4. The cost of bullets and brass are a rounding error Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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The only real balistic advantage over a 9,3x62 and a 338 Win is that the one that goes bang! Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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The same with many others. | |||
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The 320 Woodleigh seemed a tad soft on Buffalo butit got the job done. seemed to penetrate less than the 286 Nosler? the heavy for caliiber bullets shine in the 375 350 gr and up, Just my impression. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Ray, after I shot my 46” Buffalo in Zambia with a 286 gr. Nosler Partition and killed it with just one shot from 140 yds., I became an instant fan of that bullet & weight for deep penetration. I hit him square on the shoulder broadside, 1/3 the way up from the bottom for a heart shot. Penetrated all of that shoulder bone right through the heart. It was from my 9.3x66 going 2,596 fps. I admit I was surprised with its performance, but was encouraged by my PH (Andrew Baldry) that it was sufficient. I wanted to use my 404 Jeffery, but the 2.5-8x Leupold on my 9.3 was just more reliable for perfect shot placement, so I traded the 404 off for my 9.3. I’m glad I did! I (now!) totally agree with you on the penetration capability of a 286 gr. NP on dangerous big game. Seeing is believing I guess… | |||
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I have a good supply of the 286 grain Partitions for my 9.3x62 and they shoot really well in it. Have never been able to find any of the big Woodleighs. Like Mike, I like the "copper bullets" and have used Barnes and a few others in lots of different cartridges over the years. With the 9.3 I have been messing around with the 250 grain Naturalis the last couple years and have shot a couple black bears and deer with them. They have worked great, as expected, but now I have moved up to the 270 grain Naturalis. I have been getting great accuracy with the 270 grain Naturalis and hope to use it on a moose this fall. I live in NE BC not too far south of the Yukon border and drew a moose tag. I will also be watching for elk and black bear (only if it is huge). I expect the big Naturalis will perform well. ______________________________________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who are bereft of that gift. | |||
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the maybe problem you might encounter with the 270 grains naturalis is the lenght of that bullet. im keeping the 250 grains barnes tsx for now as i know it works on our bison and moose. if needed i have some north fork bullets in 286 grains ... | |||
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don't have a pic, but my Woodleigh 286 gr RNSN load is one ragged hole at 100 yards. "Evil is powerless if the good are unafraid" -- Ronald Reagan "Ignorance of The People gives strength to totalitarians." Want to make just about anything work better? Keep the government as far away from it as possible, then step back and behold the wonderment and goodness. | |||
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