quote:

Take the partition for instance. It expands to a slightly larger diameter in most calibers and generaly penetrates a bit less than the TSX.

That hasn't been my experience at all with partitions.In most cases the front core is totally shed and the remaining frontal area is actually quite small since the jacket is bent back around the rear section of the bullet,certainly less frontal area than what I have experiences with the tsx.But yes the partition does penetrate less,due in no small part to the fact that it retains significantly less weight than the tsx.
For the record,I use very high velocity cartridges including the 257wby,7mmstw and 300 rum.In lower velocity cartridges that I have used,the partition sometimes retains part of the front core,and at lower velocities,the tsx does not expand quite as rapidly.

Here is a recovered partion




another view from the rear




From the front






A TSX from the front




From the rear





The Partion did not open wider

.416 should have been .375.

quote:

No blood trail and no pig. Just a few drops of blood on above the ground grass stems. A friend of mine got some bad results with his 7-08.

Of course no recovered animal means that you can't be 100% sure of the bullet placement.Without being sure of the bullet placement,you can't accurately judge a bullets performance on game.Over the years,I have helped track several animals that were supposedly hit perfectly,only to find that the bullet placement was not nearly as good as the shooter claimed before the animal was recovered.

An example of one doesnt meen much. I am tlaking on average.
Just for gigles compare a A-Frame against a tSX. Both retain nearly all their weight, yet the TSX will almost always dig deeper. The reason...Less frontal area.

They are accurate out of my 35 whelen, and everything else but a kimber that i used to own. I'd say they on average(tsx) are accurate in most guns.

quote:

An example of one doesnt meen much. I am tlaking on average.

So was I.I have recovered several of each,and on average the frontal area of the tsx is comparable to that of the partition.

SJ, how are you measuring frontal area?

I have a 100 gr, 25 cal TSX that I just measured thats widest point is .560. Its frontal area will be much less of course.

JWP, the bullet in the last pic you posted looks like it tumbled toward the ends of its travel. Notice how the petals are pulled out.
This is pretty common.
What are the frontal are of the partition and the TSX you posted pics of. How did you measure it?

quote:

SJ, how are you measuring frontal area?

I am a mechanical engineering technologist,so I do understand the meaning of frontal area,and how it is calculated.Of course you can only estimate the frontal area due to the non symetrical shape.

I have been using Nosler Ballistic Tips in my 7mm-08 for a long time. They have worked great.

This year, just because of wanting to try something different I tried the TSX's. Between my son and I we had three one shot kills on a small, medium and large whitetail.

The internal damage on all three deer was comparable to the Ballistic Tips. The exit holes and blood trails (2 short ones, 1 no trail) were not. The holes were smaller and the blood trails not quite as prolific.

Not making any statements or conclusions, just giving facts as I saw them based on 30+ kills with the ballistic tips.

quote:

Originally posted by Ben Walker:
JWP, the bullet in the last pic you posted looks like it tumbled toward the ends of its travel. Notice how the petals are pulled out.
This is pretty common.
What are the frontal are of the partition and the TSX you posted pics of. How did you measure it?

The TSX did not tumble it was poking through the hide and was point on.. It is a 225 grain 338 cal.
The partion is a 400 grain from a Federal factory load in 416 Rigby... This bullet appears to have tumbled, because of the pinched together bullet base.. This bullets frontal ares is marginaly larger than the frontal area of the 338 cal TSX....
I have not, but I can measure them latter with a dial caliper....

quote:

As far as penciling is concerned that is a myth with copper hollowpoints . The wound channel is greater about 3" in due to the petals fragmenting off the shank but the exit is smaller than conventional as the shank returns to just over caliber and is shoulder stabilised.

BS to you too Reloader

Here is a classic example of a small deer hit with a 375 H+H KJG at 40yds in my previous thread

The skin was intack on both sides with caliber sized wounds.

Once skinned this the the entrance side


This is the chest with the entrance side below


This is the exit side


Below is an interbond showing moderate expansion and below a copper hollow-point showing the petals that break off on impact. Since you can drive banded copper bullets faster than grooved the tip fragmentation is more obvious. Amost the reverse of a conventional mushroominhg lead-copper bullet.



I shoot exclusively with copper bullets and can on request show you many pics of this effect. After 650m/s we get fragmentation but the shank still retains @80% of its weight even at 1100 m/s.



Mark

Mark,

I've seen it too many times and know for a fact it's no myth. I'm not talking caliber in/out as you suggest, I'm talking ice-pick wound channels.

I know too many others who've witnessed it as well. Heck, several times a year fellow hunters post of it happening on hunting forums.

It does happen.

I'm not downing your monos, they have their place, but they can fail to open at times on smaller animals performing exactly like a FMJ .

Have a Good One,

Reloader

You have a good one too

Merry Christmas and Good Hunting next year

Mark

ld help

quote:

Originally posted by Reloader:
Mark,

I've seen it too many times and know for a fact it's no myth. I'm not talking caliber in/out as you suggest, I'm talking ice-pick wound channels.

I know too many others who've witnessed it as well. Heck, several times a year fellow hunters post of it happening on hunting forums.

It does happen.

I'm not downing your monos, they have their place, but they can fail to open at times on smaller animals performing exactly like a FMJ .

Have a Good One,

Reloader

Round nose solids turn and or tumble in game as well as test media (try catching some in ballistic gel or wet pack), pointed bullets are notorious for tumbling (Military FMJ). I hear a lot of claims of a bullet penciling through, yet no one every shows any pictures of this so called pencilling through of spitzer bullets...

jwp, I've seen plenty of pictures on this forum alone. I've seen it happen personally on small whitetails. Sorry that I don't have detailed crime scene reports with dozens of pictures for ya. I didn't even know internet forums existed until approx 5 years ago and all of the accounts I personally witnessed were prior to that. I don't use monos on small game, they are not needed at all. They do have their place on the larger stuff.

All of the people buying into the advertisments and BS hype about having to have a mono to take bambi is a classic example of how brain washed todays hunters have become. For small or medium sized game animals, traditional cup-n-cores are all a hunter needs and all he'll need for them from now on. After reading a bunch of crap on the net one starts to wonder how little deer are growing these bullet proof vest with bones made of steel nowdays

Reloader

In Europe we have a lead ban coming so that only leaves copper.

Mark

JWP, just because the bullet was found, right side up doesnt mean it didnt tumble. The Two TSX's I have recovered both thad the petals folded against the shank in the classic TSX posture.
I still think that bullet may have tumbled.

That particular bullet did not penetrate if it had it would not have penetrated as far as it did. It slightly out penetrated a 300 TBBC from a 375. Tumbling kills penetration...

Reloader,
You should note which brands are mentioned when there is talk of monos that do not expand. It happens with some but there are mono bullets available that will expand more reliably, from lower impact speeds, than some cup and core bullets.

As for using monos for small and medium plains game, there are situations when the meat damage caused by fragmenting lead bullets is not acceptable. When you are shooting for the freezer and paying per kilogram, meat damage becomes costly. With well designed monos, the kill rate per shot is better than with fragmenting cup and core bullets and the lower volume of meat damaged pays for the difference in bullet price, many times over.

It is not that animals have become tougher, or cup and core bullets have become less effective. The place of expanding monos is where an extra measure of terminal reliability is required - when you pay per kg or when a lost animal will cost you more than just moral pain. I have used cup and core bullets on plains game, from very tiny to as big as it gets and bullet failures happen. Since using expanding monos, the only failures I have had is when I mess up the shot. Even that has diminished because of the extra measure of reliability afforded by monos. I shoot a lot of animals - This year has been slow as I personally shot less than 20 but, most years, it runs upwards of 50.

I agree Gerard and Mark.

I can see lead bans becoming a problem in the future.

It seems both of the designs that you two are fond of have a rather large frontal cavity which I'm sure aids in the successful expansion consistency you see.

I think Barnes and Winchester have taken a step in the right direction by adding tips to their copper HP offerings.

Ya'll have a good one and Merry Christmas.

Reloader

Reloader,
We looked at tipped bullets some time ago and found that with expanding mono's it remains a gamble. For those who would not take my opinion at face value, here are two quotes from "Bullet Penetration" by Duncan MacPherson.

"Hollow point bullets have stagnation pressure inside the hollow point cavity (in fluids); this tends to yield the annular forebody radially outward to initiate expansion." pg 126.

"Placing a hard object in the hollow point of a bullet does not increase expansion, it reduces expansion." pg 147.

One must not make the mistake of equating a tipped hollow point with the performance one sees with a tipped cup and core bullet.

All the best.

The tip on the 375 is purely to make the bullet a little more aerodynamic. For short range driven hunting the tip is left off to increase expansion.

Mark

quote:

One must not make the mistake of equating a tipped hollow point with the performance one sees with a tipped cup and core bullet.

Gerard, what about the tips that Barnes is using in the new TTSX and MRX? The design is sort of a wedge which upon impact initiates expansion by forcing the wedge tip into the hollow core. Is this wrong? It seems it is common that most serious reloaders and shooters feel the tips are two-fold, that being a BC aid first and foremost and an expansion aid as well.

I know you say you can't compare, I disagree to an extent. This is very similar to the differences in say a Nosler ballistic tip vs a Nosler Solid Base, two bullets of the same design but the tipped version we all know expands more violently.

Are you saying the the manufacturers claims that tips initiate expansion(which only seem logical) is Bunk?

Thanks for the information,

Reloader

Gerard, If meat damage was really a issue I probably would take the behind the shoulder or head shot. The fact of the matter is a less destructive bullet isnt a good thing IMO. After all tissue damage is what kills.

quote:

One must not make the mistake of equating a tipped hollow point with the performance one sees with a tipped cup and core bullet.

Gerard, are you saying a tip in a copper bullet doesn't help initiate expansion like it does in a jacketed lead core bullet?

Really about any bullet will work on deer, including 55 Sierras from a .220 Swift or .22-250. I have however had great terminal performance and accuracy from TSX's in a number of calibers. For that matter I could kill deer quite handily with a 7mm bullet that didn't expand. On African small antelope, they often like to use a solid so they aren't blown to bits. Still on most any game, I'd rather err with too hard a bullet than one that might blow up on bone. It will be more reliable from a shot from all angles. On broadside only shots, nothing will drop deer sized game faster than a BT type bullet driven fast.

I am not what you would consider a Barnes X freek.

However I will say, that in my Blaser R 93 bbls the 308 Federal factory 180 Barnes MRX, and the Federal factory 150 Triple shock loads are very very accurate.

Scary accurate.

Ben

Out of interest where do you shoot these animals if not the head or chest???

I dont hunt trophy anymore but shoot about 30+ deer a year and my primary concerns are

1. Reliable deformation resulting in a quick clean kill.
2. As much usable meat as possible.
3. Accuracy must be less than MOA.

Also since I eat a lot of this meat I dont want it full of lead dust, which could explain some of the strange posts on the hunting forums



Mark

Reloader,
The Nosler Ballistic Tip and the Nosler Solid Base may look similar from the outside but if you look at the actual construction, the expansion has little to do with the plastic tip. It is the far more fragile construction of the Ballistic Tip nose that makes it expand faster.

Solid Base

Ballistic Tip

The plastic tip is there to improve BC, pure and simple.

The problem with placing any solid object in the cavity of any hollow point bullet is described by MacPherson:
"The reason is that all the force that causes expansion comes from stagnation pressure, and this force is more effectively transmitted to the lead without an intermediate object." P 147.

quote:

Are you saying the the manufacturers claims that tips initiate expansion(which only seem logical) is Bunk?

I think so, yes. It is not logical that a tip inserted in a hollow point will initiate expansion. Consider that the tip arrives at the target as part of the bullet. It has momentum and energy and is moving in the same direction and speed as the bullet. Why would it reverse direction or stop when all the laws of physics dictate that it will try to keep going?

Even if it slows down at a greater rate than the rest of the bullet (which it probably does) and thereby starts driving rearwards into the body of the bullet, it would be more efficient to have the target medium act directly on the body of the bullet without the intermediary object.

I described a simple experiment on another thread.

"To anyone interested: This is easy to verify. Take any tipped cup and core bullet. Remove the tip on a couple and fire tipped and untipped bullets into the same aqueous medium. Take a number of tipped hollow point monos and do the same. Do this at three impact speeds, +- 1550fps, +- 2500fps and +- 2700fps. Tell me what you found. Don't bother shooting into building material (sand, wood, bricks), you will learn nothing for the money and time spent.

I predict: Not much difference in how the cup and core bullets expand. Big difference in how the monos expand.

Tips improve BC. Tips do not improve the expansion of a hollow point bullet. As always, it is a trade off, and the choice is yours."

quote:

The fact of the matter is a less destructive bullet isnt a good thing IMO. After all tissue damage is what kills.

You are right. What I find different with expanding monos is that the total wound channel volume usually exceeds that of jacketed lead bullets. You also have the choice of where that volume will be in the animal. With jacketed lead bullets, the destruction of the bullet often causes the bullet to change direction and it brings an uncertainty that I no longer have to worry about.

quote:

I'd rather err with too hard a bullet than one that might blow up on bone. It will be more reliable from a shot from all angles. On broadside only shots, nothing will drop deer sized game faster than a BT type bullet driven fast.

That about sums it up.

quote:

Also since I eat a lot of this meat I dont want it full of lead dust, which could explain some of the strange posts on the hunting forums

From Nosler's site:

quote:

Streamlined polycarbonate tip resists deformation in magazine, provides a streamlined meplat for flat trajectory, initiates positive expansion on impact with light and medium game.

From Barnes' site:

quote:

The tip and a re-engineered nose cavity provide even faster expansion.

From Hornady's site:

quote:

On impact, the tip also initiates controlled expansion at all velocities.

So, the manufacturers are trying to fool us all in your opinion.

I respect your opinion and you may be right, but I've shot enough tipped and non tipped bullets that IMHO, I feel the tips do aid in expansion. I do not use tipped bullets for this reason however, I use them due to the fact that they resist deformation in the magazine while cycling and under recoil. The added advantage of the higher BC is a plus as well.

Have a Good One,

Reloader

quote:

Ben

Out of interest where do you shoot these animals if not the head or chest???

I dont hunt trophy anymore but shoot about 30+ deer a year and my primary concerns are

1. Reliable deformation resulting in a quick clean kill.
2. As much usable meat as possible.
3. Accuracy must be less than MOA.

Also since I eat a lot of this meat I dont want it full of lead dust, which could explain some of the strange posts on the hunting forums Big Grin

I drill them through the shoulders.


Gerard, the pic you posted of a BT depicts the older version. The new ones have thicker jackets and in some calibers/weights are very thick. the 30 cal 180 is a example of this.
Section one and see for yourself.
BTW Your monometal design is much better than Barnes IMO. Should provide for less pressure and higher velocity potential.

Ben and Reloader,
This is easy to verify. Take any tipped cup and core bullet. Remove the tip on a couple and fire tipped and untipped bullets into the same aqueous medium. Take a number of tipped hollow point monos and do the same. Do this at three impact speeds, +- 1550fps, +- 2500fps and +- 2700fps.

Do not compare tipped bullets with untipped bullets of a different type - Same bullet, with the tips removed from some. Water will do as a medium and it is consistent and easy to duplicate wherever you are in the world.

The only way for you to solve a credibility issue is to see for yourself, otherwise you will not know what to believe. right?

I don't know about the tip issue, and dont really care. Barnes probably tipped their bullets because their BC's suck.
FWIW I would hesitate to shoot just about anythign short of dangerous game with a .308, 180 grain BT at 300 win mag velocity.

Gerard

Have you noticed that all the Big Bore guys are obscessed by SD and the Medium Bore by BC.
Interesting

Mark

Gerald, thanks for your input it is greatly appreciated

Beyond bullet construction, I believe that velocity is the greatest determinate in proper expansion with the TSX. If the velocity is very high, the petals can shear off and then you have what amounts to a solid exiting with an exit hole that looks like it did not expand. If the velocity is too low then you have very moderate expansion and again a small exit hole. Both are what I believe to be what others refer to as the pencil hole. I have yet to see anyone post a picture of a recovered TSX that did not expand. I have seen ones without petals.

With other bullets, you have the same or different problems. If you have impact velocities that are too high, you get jacket separation. I have even seen pictures of frontal areas that have sheared off of A Frames.

As far as the accuracy question goes, some guns just like particular bullets or bullet weights, or both.

I shoot an 8x57 and my gun will shoot the 180 grain TSX to a half inch at 100 yards. I love it. It also shoots the 200 grain Swift A Frame and the 196 grain Woodliegh to nearly the same accuracy. I use the same powder charge (49.8 grs of H380) with all 3 bullets.

I have been taking my wife to the range to prepare for a PG hunt in Namibia and she won't shoot anything but the TSX as she considers it to be the most accurate of the three. Needless so say, I have been buying lots of them lately.

I haven't recovered any TSX's yet from game, they go straight through.

Yeah, some guns just prefer different fodder. I have a Browning A Bolt 7mm Rem and a Dakota in the same caliber. The Browning just loves 160 A Frames, shooting 3/8" with Remington Safari stuff, but shotguns the 160 TSX all over the place. With the Dakota, it is precisely the opposite. It hasn't seen an A Frame it likes and it shoots 3/8" with Federal 160 TSX's. Go figger.