I'm going to rebarrel a Remington 700 to 8mm-06. I'm not sure whether I should have the new barrel as 1-9 twist or 1-10 twist. I plan on shooting 185gr to 200gr bullets. I'll be taking the gun on my next elk hunt.

I don't think I'll shoot anything heavier than 200gr because it seems most of them are designed for 8mm RM velocity. Which twist rate would you choose?

On the barrel length, I like the handiness of a 22" barrel, but do you think it would be worthwhile velocity-wise to go with a 24"?

They will both work fine.....I'd pick the faster twist however in case you decide to shoot heavier bullets someday but for now either is good.

personal opinion only.....stick with the 22" barrel

i would agree with vapodog. chances are more in favor of eventually going to or trying heavier bullets than lighter with 8 mm.
vapodog, do you have any idea of the accuracy that might be given up by over spinning a lighter bullet with a 9"twist vrs. underspinnibg a heavier bullet with a 10" twist? which end of the spectrum might suffer more? this might help him decide...

quote:

vapodog, do you have any idea of the accuracy that might be given up by over spinning a lighter bullet with a 9"twist vrs. underspinnibg a heavier bullet with a 10" twist? which end of the spectrum might suffer more? this might help him decide...

None at all...as long as the bullet is stabilized.....and in 8MM you don't have the problem varmint hunters do with blowing up bullets due to excessive RPMs

The only time you will see a noticable loss in accuracy is when you fail to generate ENOUGH rpm's for stabilization or if for some reason the bullet and barrel just don't "get along".....

I once thought one sacrificed velocity by spinning a bullet faster and built a few rifles on the slowest twist I could get away with.....in the end there was no easily measurable difference as the energy to twist 1-9"is very little different than to twist 1-10" and the velocity gains didn't materialize.....but the ability to shoot longer bullets did evaporate.....so today I like to error (if one must error) on the side of faster twist.

The 8mm-06 is a Great choice! Built a number of sporters through the years. It will best the 30-06 but not by much, but only because thereis a greater selection of.308 bullets. You will not ,not I say, need a premium
bullet with heavy for cal. 8mmmbullets. The happy blend of old world and Yankees. roger

Thanks for the responses. I think I will go ahead with the 1-9 twist and split the difference on the barrel length by going with 23".

I'm initially going to try the 200gr Hot-Cor and the 195gr Interlock. Hopefully my gun will like one of those two bullets. Maybe I'll try the 220 Gameking and the 196 Oryx too.

Where can you find a .323 barrel in 9" twist?

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
The 8mm-06 is a Great choice! You will not need a premium bullet with heavy for cal. 8mmm bullets.

I suppose heavy for cal. in 8mm means 220 gr and heavier. The bullets that come to mind are the gameking, Swift, & Woodleigh. That's all I can think of in current production 220 gr and heavier. I don't know if they are all classed as "premium" or not. Depends I suppose on whose opinion it is. But the Swifts and I think the Woodleighs are bonded.

Are you saying the Sierras are perfectly adequate in the 8mm-06, with no need to use the bonded bullets at all?

Anyway, I would like to read an expanded version of your opinion about this, Roger.

I have been thinking about a 8x60S, and a 9" twist barrel, because I want to use some of those neat looking heavy-for-caliber 8mm bullets. I think I have two boxes of the Woodleigh 250 gr RN, and at least 2,000 220 gr Hornadys, and maybe 900 Remington 220 gr. That Woodleigh is an interesting looking bullet to me, I suspose because it's so long and unusual looking. Sort of like the 155-160 gr 6.5mm bullet only bigger.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by duckboat:
I think I will go ahead with the 1-9 twist and split the difference on the barrel length by going with 23".

Good choice. The 8mm calibers are more popular in Europe, and calibers in the velocity range you are looking at are typically delivered in 1:9.44" (or so). 1:9 will work well.

quote:

I'm initially going to try the 200gr Hot-Cor and the 195gr Interlock. Hopefully my gun will like one of those two bullets. Maybe I'll try the 220 Gameking and the 196 Oryx too.

I personally never had a lot of luck getting the Speer 200 grs Hot-Cor to shoot. What shoots GREAT in my 8x64S (to all intents and purposes the same as a 8mm-06) are the 200 grs Accubond and the 180 grs TSX. 196 grs Oryx are acceptable as far as accuracy is concerned, but not much more. What also works well in my gun are the Woodleigh 196 grs. YMMV...

One powder you might consider trying is VV N550. That produces some pretty acceptable velocities in the 8x64S. Our very own "Monestary Forester" loads his 8x64S with a max of 58.5 grs VV N550 over a 196 grs jacketed bullet for approx. 2844 out of a 24" barrel. I use the same load over a 200 grs AB and get 2700 fps out of a 22" barrel. Accuracy in my gun is great! Note: these are 8x64S loads, but assuming a strong and modern action should be a viable load to work up to in a 8mm-06. As always, work up carefully from below.



- mike

Kabluewy, Pac-nor sells a 5 groove barrel in that twist. I read some more about the 220 Gameking and Sierra says in their manual that this bullet isn't a good choice for the 8mm-06 because magnum velocity is needed to get it to expand. I originally thought this bullet would be soft enough, but apparently not according to Sierra.

mho, thanks for the suggestion about VV N550. I've never tried a Vihtavuori powder, so maybe it is time.

Thanks for the info duckboat. I also thought the 220 gr Sierras would be soft like the rest of their gamekings, which generally just come apart because they are not bonded and are soft. I figured they would hold together good enough at the velocity of the 8x57 or 8-06, yet expand.

They must be designed special for the 8mm Rem. I wonder what that says about what they will do at 250+ yards shot from a Rem Mag? I didn't do the math, but I suspect that would be comparable with shooting them from a 8-06 at a target 100 yards or less. Doesn't add up some how. From the 8mm Mag, you're only going to get magnum vel within 100 yards. From there on out it in the velocity range of the 8-06. So maybe they act like solids beyond 100 yards even if shot from the 8mm mag? Humm. I haven't seen a gameking act like a solid yet, at any velocity.

I think maybe this falls into the same catagory as Sierra claiming their 300 gr .375 bullet is good for cape buffalo.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bartsche:
Are you saying the Sierras are perfectly adequate in the 8mm-06, with no need to use the bonded bullets at all? Anyway, I would like to read an expanded version of your opinion about this, Roger.

The initial posting refers to hunting deer and elk and using bullets starting at 185grains and going to perhaps 200grains. The 200grain bullet is in my mind heavy for caliber. And for elk ( from experience) the 180grain And 185 grain are totally adequate.
For an 8mm-06 rifle I built in 1968 for a friend who lives in Alaska I originally loaded a bunch of Fred Barnes' 220 gr. bullts. Years later for the same friend I loaded 220gr. partitions. Since the largest game he ever hunted was moose I always thought that ammo was a bit of over kill but I didn't know if he intended to go for brown bear or not.

You sure have an impressive supply of heavy 8mm bullets.I doubt I could survive shooting all of them. roger

Thanks Roger,
I think of the 180-200 gr bullets in 8mm as mid-weight for the caliber. 220-250gr heavy for caliber.

Yea, at the time I bought the bullets, I got a really good deal, and I didn't even have a 8mm rifle. Go figure. By the end of this year, I should have a 8x57, and I've got the 8x60S on a CZ 550 action in the works. I would like to have a 323 Hollis too, - maybe.

I don't know about surviving shooting them all. I just hope I survive long enough to shoot them all, at targets on the range, or game in the field. Either way, I shouldn't have to buy any more. I just need to create more opportunities to go out and shoot.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
I just need to create more opportunities to go out and shoot. KB

That's easy***retire*** roger

With the havoc the economy has caused with my retirement funds, and the even more destructive slam the gender bias judge in Juneau did in my divorce, I may have to work until I drop. At least I have enough guns so that I can sell and buy and swap for a long time without having to add money to that kitty.

vapodog,
it is understood that as long as enough spin is generated.....as you stated. with that said,it is also understood that a bullet can be under or over-stabilized. the original post implies there are both 9 and 10 inch twist to be had. if so, i would think there is enough range of bullet weight that barrel makers feel that both twists are "needed" to cover the range, lightest to heaviest, and get the best stability potential in either weight area( as i say, staying "inside the box of weight vrs. spin dynamics". there has to be a point where one twist is better suited to one range of weights or the other, there in lies my question. which will suffer under/over-stabilization sooner as the weight goe up or down by being outside the box, so to speak.

quote:

Originally posted by merlinron:
vapodog,
it is understood that as long as enough spin is generated.....as you stated. with that said,it is also understood that a bullet can be under or over-stabilized. True...understabilized means bullet wobble and even keyholing.....overstabilization can actually cause a bullet to blow up due to centrifugal force.


the original post implies there are both 9 and 10 inch twist to be had. if so, i would think there is enough range of bullet weight that barrel makers feel that both twists are "needed" to cover the range, not necessarily....in this case the 10" twist will handle both the described bullets....alternate twists may be simply a marketing thing....there may also be VLD bullets available in this caliber.... The 9" twist is adequate for both as well

lightest to heaviest, and get the best stability potential in either weight area( as i say, staying "inside the box of weight vrs. spin dynamics". there has to be a point where one twist is better suited to one range of weights or the other, there in lies my question. which will suffer under/over-stabilization sooner as the weight goe up or down by being outside the box, so to speak.

The situation here is covered by either twist and one may or may not be be better than the other....

When we look at .224 caliber we see twists from 1-7" twist to 1-14" and probably more I'm not aware of....this is because velocities of .224 calibers range from 2,200 FPS to over 4,000 FPS and bullet range from 35 grains to well over 70. (at least)

It's very important to have the twist match the cartridge and bullet in this caliber.....

In 8MM we don't have such a range in either speed or bullet selection.....so the consequences aren't as dramatic.

As an aside:
The 7.65 Belgian shoots a .312 bullet with a 9.8" twist

The .303 British used a .310 bullet with a 10" twist

The 7.7 Japanese uses a .312 bullet with a 9.5" twist

The .32 Special uses a .321 bullet with a 16" twist (figure that one out)

8 X 57 uses a .323 bullet at 9.25 twist

8 X 68 uses a .323 bullet at 12" twist

8MM Rem Mag uses a .323 bullet with a 10" twist

The assumption that one is better may or may not hold water....but from the evidence both are adequate.....

Ine can breakout the Greenhill formula and try to get the "best" twist for a particular bullet.....I found that looking at what others have done is the best route.....only two places can I find fault with what others have done and that's what Remington did with the .244, the .35 Whelen.

Please note that both Winchester and Remington shoot the same bullets at the same velocities in their .243 and 6MM.....and one uses 10" twist and the other (now) uses 9" twist.....and we don't hear over or under stabilization arguments here.....we could do the same with other calibers.....

Many prefer a 12" twist in their .308.....but the 10" has no complainers.

There is a range for everything.....in the case of 8MM their are overlapping with 9" and 10"

thanks for the details... the mention of velocity and how it plays into the twist rates turned the lights on for me!

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
True...understabilized means bullet wobble and even keyholing.....
....in this case the 10" twist will handle both the described bullets....The 9" twist is adequate for both as well.

The situation here is covered by either twist and one may or may not be be better than the other....

It's very important to have the twist match the cartridge and bullet in this caliber.....

In 8MM we don't have such a range in either speed or bullet selection.....so the consequences aren't as dramatic.

8 X 57 uses a .323 bullet at 9.25 twist

8 X 68 uses a .323 bullet at 12" twist

8MM Rem Mag uses a .323 bullet with a 10" twist

The assumption that one is better may or may not hold water.... from the evidence both are adequate.....

There is a range for everything.....in the case of 8MM their are overlapping with 9" and 10"

vapodawg,
Loather Walther lists their finished 8x57 mauser barrels as 9.4" twist, which as I understand is CIP. I think the SAAMI twist is 10". Not that it matters, it just is.

I am very hesitant to get into a discussion about twist - because of too many opinions, snd I don't want to divert the original discussion. As I understand, you are saying the 10" twist in 8mm is good to go with the 180-200 gr bullets. I'm thinking it would be adequate up to 220 gr.

The reason I wanted to try a 9" twist is because I wanted to try some of the Woodleigh 250 grs, just because, and use a regular diet of 220 grs. After all, the 156-160 gr 6.5mm bullets work well with an 8" twist.

Once, I was testing some loads in my 280, using 175 gr bullets in 9" twist. Consistantly I was able to get pretty good groups at 100 yards, but they opened up disproportionally at 200 yds, and became completely unacceptable at 300 yards. I could not figure out why, because using 160 gr bullet, I got good accuracy at 100 yds and 300 yds. I gave up trying to figure out why, and just use 160 gr bullets, but I always suspected the bullets were on the edge of understabilization and began to wobble as they slowed down past 100 yards.

I had an opposite experience using two different 338s with 10" twist. They shot 250 gr bullets plenty accurately, but I could not get the same accuracy with lighter bullets. I have one 338 with a 12" twist and it shoots 200 - 250 gr bullets equally accurate, as far out as I have tested them. I know it could just be variations in the barrels, but that's my experience with it.

Anyway, with my 8mm, using 250 gr bullets, I'm not planning on long range shots, so I figure a little more spin will help rather than hurt, similar to the praise given the long 6.5mm bullets and their penetration. Also, I figured that the extra spin will help with 220 gr, especially if the Sierras BT work out, if I get to make shots 200 yards plus. I like the idea of having one medium bore rifle dedicated to heavy-for-caliber bullets, and I want to know the bullets are stabilized well out to 300 yards, as they slow down out there. That extra spin also has to help them open up at the lower velocity.

I think that if 200 gr was the heaviest bullet used, in any 8mm rifle cartridge, 10" twist would be just right.

KB

Kabluewy,
I think if you check my first post here you just stated my exact sentiments....

FYI**Hopefully appropo. "1966"

A 6.5x.284 that I had built using a Arasaka rifle had a barrel a shade over 29 1/2" and a fast twist perhaps as stated by VD. The only bullets that didn't fly apart were the 160gr. in Norma and Hornady and the Barnes originals in 156gr. plus.

The 140gr. cup and cores showed no target holes at 25 yds.just a pattern of gray dust. At perhaps 17 yards we started to see a pattern of small perferations. At about 8 yards we saw well pronounced comet tail holes.

I'm sure you are aware that it is revolutions /sec. and not revolutions /in. that tares jackets off bullets. At 1/2 the velocity in the same rifle you'll probably never shed a jacket. roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
The 8mm-06 is a Great choice! You will not ,not I say, need a premium
bullet with heavy for cal. 8mmmbullets. roger

Roger,
Perhaps your experience with the 6.5mm bullets vaporizing would have been different using one of today's "premium" bonded bullets such as the Woodleigh or the Swift. Maybe they would have made it to 75 yds or so.

OK, I'm just messing with you. Really, I think your experience with the 6.5 is interesting, and informative.

Seriously though, I doubt the spin on the 250 gr bonded Woodleighs, generated by a 9" twist 8mm barrel will vaporize them, at the velocity obtainable in the 8mm-06 or 8x60S. That would be a real surprise, and likewise with the 220 grs, or any 8mm bullet except maybe the very lightest and most fragile - whatever that is.

KB

My rebarreled rifle arrived and I took it out shooting today. I ended up getting a 23" 1-9 twist barrel. I put a 2.5-8 Leupold scope on it. The gun likes the 200 gr. HotCor with IMR4350. I put in for an Elk tag in Wyoming, so hopefully I get drawn this year.

If you are looking for good premium bullets in .323 cal., please forget the yankee-bullets (perhaps with exception of the Swifts), look to the european bullet makers, they have a wide selection of bullets up to 225grs, bonded or not, lead cored or solids! They(also Woodleigh) have more experience with full power loads in 8mm, not these stupid 170grs loads!
But the 8mmO6 is a great choice just like her (little more powerful) european sister 8x64S.

quote:

Originally posted by Monastery-Forester:
If you are looking for good premium bullets in .323 cal., please forget the yankee-bullets (perhaps with exception of the Swifts), look to the european bullet makers, they have a wide selection of bullets up to 225grs, bonded or not, lead cored or solids! They(also Woodleigh) have more experience with full power loads in 8mm, not these stupid 170grs loads!
But the 8mmO6 is a great choice just like her (little more powerful) european sister 8x64S.

I usually tend to agree with you but in this case...well, I agree that the 170's are designed for reduced loads but they perform well at reduced velocities.

The Nosler partitions perform very well at full power and another sleeper is the Remington 185. I don't think I have one 8mm rifle that it won't shoot well in and performance has never been lacking.

Especially with the two .323 Core Lokts from Rem. you ´ll often have core separations - not a good deal when hunting big game!
But, sorry, my sentences were a little provocating , and you are right, the Nosler Part is always a good performer, but not the last cry!
At this time I prefer the bullets from belgium custom bullet maker Wim Degol. You can order the weight you like mostly, the thickness of the jackets and the form (round nosed, spitzer, semi spitzer, hollow pointed) at really fair prices.