Anyone use them on game? I've been reading a lot about them lately and they are interesting. Basically they penetrate 2-3 inches before expanding and then pretty much explode in the vital area. They are supposed to very quick killers.

I've had some experience with the 168 VLD out of my 7 RM. To date around 1/2 dozen deer, the closest was real close and the furthest was 437 yds. Last year I killed a moose at 30 yds with this same bullet. Also, this year I killed my MD buck at about 40 yds with a 130 VLD out of my 260 Rem.

Last year, in Namibia, I killed 1 kudu, 2 gemsbok, 1 black wildebeest, 1 blue wildebeest, 1 red hartebeest, 1 zebra, 1 warthog, 1 baboon and about a dozen springbok with the 168 VLD out of my 7 RM.

I'll be using the 168 VlD again this March on waterbuck and eland.

IMO, they kill exceptionally well. My PH, a dyed in the wool TSX man, was very skeptical about my choice of the 168 VLD until I kept dropping animals again and again with 1 shot.

Bobby B.

Thanks Bobby. That's what I've read, spectacular one shot kills and very little tracking because they usually DRT.

No issues with them plowing through bone to get to the vitals?

All except 2 of my PG animals were killed with 1 shot and the only bones encountered were ribs and they posed no problems for the VLD's. The 2 animals required more than 1 shot was my kudu whcih required 2 and my warthog which also required 2. My first shot on the kudu broke it's hip then I gave it a finisher broadside at close range. The warthog was first shot in the ass as it was about to disappear over a slight rise, it too was given a finisher at close range.

I almost fortgot that my second gemsbok required more than 1 shot. The first dropped it where it stood at around 250 yds. As we approached it, it got back up on its feet and I shot it again in the chest as it quartered away. It dropped for the second time. It then got up at very close range and I shot it up the ass thus dropping it for the third and final time. I suppose the first shot would have killed it soon enough but I much prefer to end the animal's suffering as quickly as possible.

The moose and deer were all killed with broadside shots, sometimes a rib was struck either on entrance or on exit. Never did a rib appear to pose an obstacle to the VLD's ability to kill DRT.

So, in actuality, you can see I've had very little experience with the VLD plowing through bones. Almost all my shots so far on game were broadside shots at standing animals. However, the VLD's kill best as I place them, and in this way they're very lethal, one of the very best. It would seem reasonable to suggest they kill quicker than other bullets when the animal is broadside but might well not perform as well as others if raking shots are taken.

Bobby B.

Scott....Berger hunting bullets are somewhat new....It'll be a while until we get sufficient reports to start to make judgments of their performance.

Thanks for starting this as I think it's good to ask the opinions.....However I'd like to ask those responding to include (if they can) the caliber, bullet weight and ballistic coefficient....

This is important as it seems Berger is striving to capture the long distance shooter.....

I've taken a number of animals with Berger VLDs. I don't happen to know the B.C. of the top of my head but you can't get much better than the Bergers.

With my 300 Weatherby Magnum using 168 gr. VLDs:

1. Four pronghorn antelope at ranges from about 80 yards up to 292 yards.

2. Two whitetails.

With my 25/06 using 115 gr. VLDs:

1. One white tail at probably 200 yards. The bullet penetrated the the back of a rear leg and still killed it; talk about penetration. Yea, a Texas Heart Shot as the deer was leaving.

I live in Cody which is the home of Best of the West and they are long range as in way long range advocates. My experience with talking with these guys who use Bergers exclusively is that they almost always shoot long range where they can wait for a broadside shot. As Scott said the Bergers ordinarily will penetrate a few inches and then explode. They do cause instant kills when all is right, they are high B.C. and very low drag. The BUT comes when you press these guys about bad angle shots and going away shots. They don't take them. The Bergers are just too frangible.

Personally I'll stick with the Accubonds for long range and if I have to take that bad angle shot I can.

Mark

Accubonds

I like them.

Here is the exit wound on my pronghorn buck taken at 292 yards with a 168 gr. Berger VLD out of a 300 Weatherby.

As for penetration, I've found it to be quite good. There are two types of Berger VLDs by the way; the hunting VLD has a thicker jacket.

And Accubonds; I like them as well.

Grumulkin:You are a better man than I am Gunga Din. Most people would not post a picture of a gut shot deer. You were luckey that you were not useing the Accubonds at the time or you might be still trying to find it.

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin: There are two types of Berger VLDs by the way; the hunting VLD has a thicker jacket.

And Accubonds; I like them as well.

This is incorrect. The Hunting version is the original thin jacket model that they were making for years. They changed the name and put them in orange boxes. The Target version has the thicker jacket to fix the problem of occasional blow up at high velocity, especially in the 6mms.

quote:

Originally posted by Fat_Albert:
Grumulkin:You are a better man than I am Gunga Din. Most people would not post a picture of a gut shot deer. You were luckey that you were not useing the Accubonds at the time or you might be still trying to find it.

Don't you see the ribs my good man? It wasn't gut shot and, if it was, it doesn't matter since it only went maybe 15 feet after the shot. Also, it wasn't a "deer."

I'm with FA on this one, ribs or no ribs, deer or no deer, this is still in the gut...

The photo is to represent the result of a Berger bullet....as to gutshot or not....I don't know how anyone can tell as we don't see an entrance hole.....If the entry was immediately behind the left front leg then it's not IMO a gutshot animal. If that's the case.....the exit hole misrepresents the true nature of bullet placement.

Anyone else just plain skeptical of a bullet designed to blow up, ie what most people call "fail" on impact?

I really like the idea but to me the jury is still out on this one, which is why I'll be watching this thread...

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:
Here is the exit wound on my pronghorn buck taken at 292 yards with a 168 gr. Berger VLD out of a 300 Weatherby.

As for penetration, I've found it to be quite good. There are two types of Berger VLDs by the way; the hunting VLD has a thicker jacket.

And Accubonds; I like them as well.

If memory serves it is the target VLD that has the ticker jacket. I beliee that the jacket was thickened on the tartget VLD to with stand the forces of the fast twist high velocity rifles

The hunting VLD is the original target VLD

JWP,

I've read the same thing about the target jacket being thicker for the same reason you have stated.

According to my last info from Walt, the target bullet has the thicker jacket. How much more penetration is required than what is obtained by the Berger VLD's?

Bobby B.

quote:

Originally posted by Wayfaring Stranger:
Anyone else just plain skeptical of a bullet designed to blow up, ie what most people call "fail" on impact?

I really like the idea but to me the jury is still out on this one, which is why I'll be watching this thread...

At least for now there's a lot of fine known bullets of good ballistic coefficient to choose from. Accubonds and SSTs for a couple.

Like you.....I'm taking a "wait-N-See" attitude toward Berger hunting bullets

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:
Here is the exit wound on my pronghorn buck taken at 292 yards with a 168 gr. Berger VLD out of a 300 Weatherby.

As for penetration, I've found it to be quite good. There are two types of Berger VLDs by the way; the hunting VLD has a thicker jacket.

And Accubonds; I like them as well.

Wow, must have seen the chunks flying in the air from that impact.

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin: Don't you see the ribs my good man? It wasn't gut shot and, if it was, it doesn't matter since it only went maybe 15 feet after the shot. Also, it wasn't a "deer."

If that isn't a gut shot, I'd hate to see your definition of a gut shot. You "might" have clipped the last rib, which in the real world means a gut shot. Dollars to donuts that goat hunched up, donkey kicked and scrambled around on his tip-toes after the shot.

As for Berger hunting bullets, I was interested as well because a buddy has been raving about them. So I bought a box and will use them while eradicating some feral hogs shortly. I should have plenty of opportunity to see how they perform. They sure shoot great!

For those concerned about the "gut shot" it didn't "donkey kick" or run around. There was a red spray on the grass for 6 to 8 feet behind where I hit it. In addition, assuming it was gut shot, if it died promptly and didn't go far, what does it really matter?

I should also mention, that the VLD used was before Berger made the distinction between "hunting" and "target" VLDs. Not only do they work OK, they work quite a bit better than OK.

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:
For those concerned about the "gut shot" it didn't "donkey kick" or run around. There was a red spray on the grass for 6 to 8 feet behind where I hit it.

To which I poster earlier...

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
The photo is to represent the result of a Berger bullet....as to gutshot or not....I don't know how anyone can tell as we don't see an entrance hole.....If the entry was immediately behind the left front leg then it's not IMO a gutshot animal. If that's the case.....the exit hole misrepresents the true nature of bullet placement.

Maybe I missed something....please explain how we can surmise that this "goat" was gutshot ?

quote:

Maybe I missed something....please explain how we can surmise that this "goat" was gutshot ?

I'll second that! Just because the bullet exited behind the ribs does not mean the animal was "gut" shot. It appears that we have quite a few internet commandos without much actual hunting experience on this site. What kind of no hunting moron could confuse that color pattern with a deer?

I shot a doe with a 140 Berger VLD last year, and the exit wound looked just like this one, although it came out the front end of the deer. The doe was walking away from me, quartering, about 250 yards. Round entered just back of the left arm pit, came out just to the right of the brisket. Hit bone, too--sounded just a billiard ball hitting another one. BLD has plenty of penetration capabilty in my book.
Shotgun

Grumulkin clearly says it's an exit wound, and doesn't specify where the bullet went in. Some folks must be assuming that it was the entrance. Grumulkin also clearly states it was a pronghorn. Folks might want to read a little closer before criticizing.

I've been working up a 168 gr .308 VLD hunting load I plan to use for wolf in a few weeks. If I'm fortunate to get one I'll post results.

-nosualc

quote:

land of sky blue waters

Hamms.....the beer refreshing.....

UMMM...


Sorry guys but a doe deer does not test the toughness of any bullet neither does a deer's rib bone. Until I see a VLD punch some serious heavy bone without coming uncorked I am not sold. I doubt that it can.

I used 168gr Berger hunting VLD this year under 56 grains of H414, in my 30.06,

I was able to take a very nice 8 pointer at about 60yards, it ran in chasing a doe and was very focused on her, he came straight in, then turned sligthly quartering away, entry was caliber, size exit was about half dollar size hitting a rib, poa was behind crease of near side leg. He heel kicked and continue chasing the doe about 30 yards and was doing the wabbley leg walk and fell over before I could take a second shot. DRT. Blood trail which I didn't need to follow, because he fell in sight was a series of 24" long red road lines. Heart was completely destroyed. It worked as well as any other bullet I have used, the accurracy gives me extreme confidence to place the bullet where i need too.

The last couple of years using accubonds and federal fusion factory ammo, in different calibers, had the same effects, deer dead within 30 yards, except NO BLOOD trail, was caliber in caliber out. This was disconcerning too me and lead me to try the bergers.

I have also read to avoid the high shoulder shot with the bergers if possible especially on elk sized game. I think in certain situations, bean fields, sendernos, western spot and stalk these bullets are very well suited, other situations the accubond or tsx would be more apporpiate.

Hey Armchair Bwana, It appears to me the only real difference between the Original Berger Bullets, which are Designed for paper, is the Labeling on the Box.

From what I can tell, this "change" occurred after Mr. Berger stepped back from running the Company and handed over the reins to some new-to-the-company folks. Smells like a lot of PT Barnum marketing to me.

I know people have contacted them and asked about what was actually "changed", but I just do not believe the answers. When you look at the results on-game, it looks just like an Extremely Fragile Varmint Bullet Design. While it will work some of the time, I want a Bullet which has a much better chance of performing properly all of the time, due to a proper Design.

I don't use Bullets Designed for Paper when Hunting, nor do I use Politically Correct Bullets(without Lead) which are approved by pelosi/boxer/schumer/brady/etc.

Not meaning to be a smart @$$ but the longest shot posted on this thread is 427 yds and only two over 300yds. Most are well withing 200 yds. Why the need for a VLD bullet design?

quote:

Originally posted by Clem:
Not meaning to be a smart @$$ but the longest shot posted on this thread is 427 yds and only two over 300yds. Most are well withing 200 yds. Why the need for a VLD bullet design?

I don't use them because I necessarily need them but because they happened to be very accurate in the rifles I used them for. Also, I do occasionally take shots at a bit over 400 yards and especially when there is wind, the VLD design gives a little flatter trajectory and less wind drift than a flat based bullet with a lower BC would.

To me the picture shows a classic example of a boat tail bullet fired at very high speed. The boat tail on the bullet formes a vacuum behind the bullet and pulls a large column air along with it. The air is sucked into the body cavity behind the bullet filling up the body cavity like blowing into balloon and the exit is all that air trying to get out. If you look at the skin flap and ribs there is no evidents of bullet fragment cuts. The bullet may have not even opended up and the blowout was caused by the air going out the exit hole. It was like sticking a pin into a balloon. When people get blowout at the entry points it not from the bullet opening on the skin but the bullet coming apart and there is no exit hole and the air goes back out the entry hole. When I was in the army in the 60's I saw high speed movies of goats being shoot with FMJBT bullets and you could see the body expand and then the blowout at the exit wound.

I'm using VLDs because my shots are likely to be in the 250-350yd range. This isn't that far a shot, but far enough that wind and drop need to be doped.

In that case, I prefer as little wind drift, and drop as I can get away with, while still using a bullet with effective terminal ballistics.

-nosualc

I use them because they are very accurate in my 7MM RemMag, and they do very well on game.

Kudu, Gemsbok, BlackWildebeest,Nyala,Impala, Springbok,Axis,Mule deer,Whitetail, Aoudad,Pronghorn and feral hog.

All one shot kills most where bang flops. We had to trail the Kudu and Gemsbok about 50 yards or so. From about 50 yards to a lasered 565 yards.

Bone ( shoulders ) and ribs. Few exits, most had very little retained weight, jacket cups and fragments.

I like 'em.

My dad shot a big KY whitetail at 40 yards broadside using 95 gr VLD's in a .243 win. The buck went about 25 yards, stopped and stood around for a good 10 minutes before laying down and dying.
Over the past 5 years he has shot several with a .223 using 75 gr Scirrocos with much better success, but that's a whole different arguement.

Oh sorry, the bullet hit low, center shoulder and did not exit.

quote:

Originally posted by gzig5:

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin: There are two types of Berger VLDs by the way; the hunting VLD has a thicker jacket.

And Accubonds; I like them as well.

This is incorrect. The Hunting version is the original thin jacket model that they were making for years. They changed the name and put them in orange boxes. The Target version has the thicker jacket to fix the problem of occasional blow up at high velocity, especially in the 6mms.

This is True.. Hunting VLDs are thin skined! Target VLDs are thick!

From what I've seen they behave a bit like A-maxes with their thin jackets.

To me this means that for deer and deer like things under a hundred and fifty pounds or so, with a large enough calibre like a 7mm or 30 cal of some description and if not pushed too fast they should kill and kill quickly on a broadside shot.

Typically I see either no exit or a tiny one from a jacket fragment or a ruddy great hole with bits and pieces strewn about behind the animal. I should mention in passing that neither of those states are particularly attractive one to me when hunting, I think I'd prefer a good bleeding exit wound on a deer that runs fifty yards in to a wood than none at at all on a deer that runs twenty five.

Back on topic I find the bullets, in the 6.5mm in a friend's 6.5x 55 and the 30 cal in my 06, to be very frangible in the carcase, in fact I gralloched a deer that my friend shot exactly in the heart and the bullet did not manage to make it out of the ventricles. Bizarre I realise, but there were three witnesses to this fallow doe heart, the animal probably weighed 35 clean shot at 100 yards with a 140 grain VLD, with a one inch entrance hole, no exit and full of lead and copper filings.

The BC issue is valid but at most "normal" hunting ranges, see below, the difference in trajectory and wind drift will be tiny, less than a quarter to half a minute in most cases.

That experience, and a few more with Bergers and A-maxes, on a variety of deer has convinced me that if one is after a bullet for deer and deer like animals at normal hunting ranges, 0- 250 yards, ie. for 99% of the deer stalking most of us do; one would be better served by a more stoutly built bullet. Meat damage can be horrendous if you shoot close up at smaller deer, I've blow up a Muntjac and a Chinese Water Deer with this sort of bullet, but in all honesty so can a conventional soft point if you get unlucky.

In my case and from my '06 and 308 that is anything from a 150 grain Speer boat-tail (a rather soft bullet but with a good BC), through to a 180 grain Hornady interlock (Fine for everything in Europe and most things everywhere else ) to 168 grain TSX (For when I'm navel gazing about "ideal" weight retention).

In short, if you shoot animals that give up the ghost fairly easily at long range, they'll open up when they get there but for "normal hunting" go with something that'll give you a bit of a safety margin.

The thing that is intriguing about the VLD Hunting bullet is it's ability to penetrate a few inches BEFORE expanding. I don't think you get the same effect with an AMAX. Most varmint bullets explode on impact. With the Berger, it penetrates a few inches before it starts to expand and then blows up so it's kind of like surgically inserting a grenade in the vital area of the deer.

This is how I understand it's performance and what makes it unique regardless of BC.