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I own two rifles with detachable magazines, a Browning X Bolt 300 WSM and a Sako 75 338 Win Mag. Both are relatively new designs where engineers and marketers analyzed every detail for customer satisfaction. I find that with my 300, when I fire a shot and the reload while the animal either falls or disappears from view, I have to take my eyes away, use two hands to remove the mag, withdraw a cartridge from the holder, push it into the magazine and replace the magazine. With my Remington BDL 270, I keep my eye on the animal and can do pretty much all the rest with my right hand and my left keeps the rifle in the general correct position. Why then the detachable mag? 2) Triggers: I accept that a trigger is what you get used to. My beloved 270 BDL (and other favourite rifles) has a trigger with deep vertical grooves that are comfortable and non-slip. My X-Bolt's is smooth and not as "positive" a feel. I am a hunter, not a target shooter. Question: if every detail is analyzed to death, why the less comfortable (for me) trigger? That said, I picked the X Bolt because it is light and had a 23" barrel that was due for a suppressor, so length was an issue and recoil would not be. It shoots magnificently. | ||
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Never the twine shall meet, We can put a man on the moon, but we cant design a good trigger for such guns as the lever action Win. 100 or 88 for instance and a few others.. That said with a bit of effort a human can conquer those bad triggers and shoot quite well..Practice with an original Mauser 98.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Why are you removing the mag in the midst of an engagement, when you should have at least three rounds left? Why detachable plastic mags? If you are referring to the modern crop of plastic rifles that sell for $300 and shoot .5 MOA, then it is simple; Economics. Young guys simply won't/can't pay the $850 for a nice wood stocked traditional Mauser type, magazine rifle. And they work and shoot well enough. Triggers, etc? TRAIN on them; train as you fight (hunt). As the Army says. Not sure what a Win 101 lever action is, but if it was designed in the late 50s, or 60s, that explains it. Because before CNC machining and investment castings were developed, stamped steel was used a lot. Only Savage was successful at using that design and still does. | |||
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I reload the magazine because I like having as many rounds available as possible. The point is too, that a fixed magazine would invariably hold one more cartridge than a detachable magazine. If cost is an issue, why on these relatively high end rifles. I agree that complete familiarity with a trigger is all that it takes, so no complaints there. Perhaps my question is, am I missing something? Are there aspects to hunting and shooting that American hunters, for example, have the habit of doing that I do not? Trigger guards, for example, are sometimes made large for the use of gloved fingers, something that we never need on this side of the world. | |||
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Karoo, a question: Are you sying when you hunt with your .300WSM you have only 1 round in the magazine, and after firing a shot you detach the magazine, replace 1 new cartridge and pop the magazine back into the rifle ? Hunting.... it's not everything, it's the only thing. | |||
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30-06, No, I had three, fired one and have two left. This is not for that very immediate follow-up shot, but just to be filled up again with as many rounds as possible should there be a problem. I wonder if the detachable magazine is more to do with storage and transport than with actual hunting. | |||
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Yes the problem with many detachable magazines is they must be removed to add cartridges compared to a fixed magazine that you can top up at any time. In America most hunters now seem to either road hunt or hunt from some kind of stand. Plus no loaded guns allowed in a vehicle. That's one of the reasons why detachable magazines have become popular. Roger ___________________________ I'm a trophy hunter - until something better comes along. *we band of 45-70ers* | |||
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The two posts above probably answer the question and the Continental Europeans for whom the modern Sako rifles were designed most likely have the same requirements. I dread losing my X Bolt magazine and having the costly and drawn-out process of buying a new one. Definitely not on the local shelf over here. | |||
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Why do you need two hands to remove the magazine? Is it because the magazine would drop to the ground if you didn't catch it with the other hand? If so, let me make a suggestion: Buy another magazine, carry it loaded. When you shoot, cycle the bolt, release the magazine and allow it to fall on the ground, then replace it with your spare magazine. Now you have four rounds at your disposal, just as you did before you fired the first shot. To quote Browning: A superior system. There is nothing cheap about the look and feel of the X-Bolt rotary magazine. It's designed to be boringly reliable and endure the punishment that will break lookalikes from competitors. Buy an extra magazine (or two) in your pocket to facilitate a quick reload when it counts. | |||
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Don't know, I've been perfectly happy with magazine fed Steyr's. | |||
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Pretty funny stuff. Guess we're all too old to get why kid prefer detachable magazines. I suspect the average young shooter is safer with a detachable magazine. Having watched more than a few, not sure they'd even know how to clear a non-detachable box mag rifle, or even find a floorplate release. Plus they won't be smashing their CRF extractor over the rim of the loaded round they finger-stuffed in the chamber. Like DPCD sez, economics. As for triggers, my 391s, ASE90, and P-stick have smooth trigger surfaces. Just went and checked. Cuz I never so much as thought about it. How can I break anything with a smooth trigger? Better not get between my ears....... | |||
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I still do not understand why anyone would fiddle with loading a magazine in the middle of a hairy situation when he should be fully situationally aware of the action; using the 3 or 4 remaining shots in the magazine to finish the job properly. I have never seen a need to do what you want to; short of laying down suppressive fire at an enemy position; if you are doing that, then get several extended mags. And fix bayonets; you will need one. And, this is why magazine cutoffs were used by the British and Americans; so you could fire single shot; then when the enemy attacked you had a full magazine at your disposal. German theory was the opposite. Shoot the entire 5 shots, then load with a clip. Trying to load into the chamber of a Mauser will result in a jammed rifle or broken extractor; by design. German soldiers were trained not to do that; British and Americans, were. Maybe do that; shoot single shot, then when you need the magazine, insert it; easier than trying to load it in the middle of the fray. I understand the need to preserve them; not easy to get. If you are hunting animals, focus on the shots; if you can't do it with 5, for one animal, stay home. Once you get a break in the action, reload. And train/practice for what you want to do. No one wants to do that; I find around here. Five shots from the bench, hit within 6 inches of the target, ready to go. | |||
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Model 88 ? | |||
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zrp twas a typo..I fixed it! For those who claim reloading clips in a DG situation get a life, its the fastest reload in the world. Carry extra clips!!  that said Im not a fan of clips on large rifles, Im a Mauser, Mod. 70 pre 64 fan, Ruger 77 and even a ruger #1, but that's another thread.. I don't mind loading and reloading when hunting, I don't have anything better to do..but where I hunt we have no such stupid law, we just take out the round in the chamber out and leave the magazine full while in the truck, I think we're legal, if not I shall remain a criminal at large.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by dpcd: I still do not understand why anyone would fiddle with loading a magazine in the middle of a hairy situation when he should be fully situationally aware of the action; I don't want to over-analyze the situation, but this is not about being in a hairy position. Bottom line is that I change grip as well my focus point to recharge my available cartridges as I feel more comfortable with three or four than two. My other rifles are simply easier to work and I wondered why these modern ones are different. Others supplied logical explanations to my question. As for buying another magazine, yes, it can be done, but it took Browning almost two years to supply their designated African agent with this rifle with very poor communication inbetween. A magazine for an odd cartridge will be expensive and difficult to find. Yes, I know, I have to accept these things. Incidentally, I love this rifle but will not easily deal with the company again. | |||
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I guess I'm a dinosaur. I don't own a bolt action rifle with a detachable magazine and will never buy one. To easy to loose one and unless your rifle is in current production difficult/expensive to replace. Tom Z NRA Life Member | |||
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Mauser MO 3 with magazine lock, great trigger, spares available, accurate, problems solved. | |||
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I have two Tikka T3 model rifles, a 30.06 and .300WM, both with detachable 3 shot plastic magazines. So, some similarities to your situation. Sometimes I do goat culling when it's handy to have the potential to get 6 shots away smartly. I decided the way to do this was obtain a second 3 shot magazine which goes into a handy pocket before shooting starts. If more shots than the initial 3 are needed it takes mere seconds to exchange the empty magazine for the full one. Of course this magazine exchange can occur at any point after shots have been fired. I can do this one handed, by feel, without taking my eye off the hit zone. If firing all 6 shots quickly I always thereafter rest a bit and allow the barrel to cool before continuing. Gives me time to recharge both magazines. Tikka does supply 5 shot magagzines but by protruding below the rifle belly at the exact point I like to carry the rifle in hand are an annoyance so I stuck with 3 shot magazines. If needed I could take a third magazine by removing another from either the 30.06 or .300WM as both magazines are exactly the same but I found my system with 2 magazines worked for my purposes. I don't know why but although spare Tikka magazines are easily obtainable here they are stupidly expensive for plastic componentry. I was fortunate enough to acquire a spare magazine on one of my USA trips where they are fairly priced. If Browning magazines are also modular maybe you know someone who could find you one in the USA...?? Also, I would say with the above system recharging is just as quick as with my Sako and Blaser rifles, both of which have top loading, non detachable magazines. Enough practise with either system and you gain proficiency. Hunting.... it's not everything, it's the only thing. | |||
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When I acquire a rifle or handgun with detachable magazines, I immediately acquire 3 or more, sometimes many more, spare magazines. Not inexpensive, but usually not unreasonably expensive either, compared to the price of the gun itself. | |||
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Some good advice in the various posts above. | |||
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"Why then the detachable mag?" "I decided the way to do this was obtain a second 3 shot magazine which goes into a handy pocket before shooting starts. If more shots than the initial 3 are needed it takes mere seconds to exchange the empty magazine for the full one. Of course this magazine exchange can occur at any point after shots have been fired. I can do this one handed, by feel, without taking my eye off the hit zone." I do the same i hunt with one 3round mag (tikka t3)exchange it with a new 5 round mag round still with a round in the chamber. All my cartridges can be carried in mags during a hunt no loose rounds. | |||
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Careful with the Tikka mags, my nephew on one of our annual Tahr hunts into the Alps fortunately just heard a slight noise when carrying his Tikka through deep snow to get to a bull tahr he had just shot and on stopping and looking down just spotted the magazine sinking into the snow. Somehow had released and dropped out of his rifle. First thing he did on return to civilization was to get a spare mag. | |||
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Very pertinent comment Eagle. It's happened to me too. I was completely unaware a loaded magazine dropped out of the rifle. Fortunately my sharp eyed son who was walking behind rescued the situation. When inserting a charged magazine with the bolt closed it takes a good effort to get the magazine to "click" into it's locked position. Being partly deafened by shooting often I don't hear the "click" so have to give the mag a little tug to ensure it's locked in. I guess I didn't do that the day of my mishap. Maybe your nephew experienced the same...?? Hunting.... it's not everything, it's the only thing. | |||
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Eagle eyed sons come in handy sometimes don't they, good when they are old enough to do camp duties and carry animals, dad can sit back and relax a bit more then  My biggest worry with detachable mags is that for my little Gevarm semi auto 22 RF. They are as scarce as the Moa so I'm always very aware when using the Gevarm as to the magazine, usually carry it with my hand wrapped around it. Without the magazine these carbines that fire from an open breach and use one of the mag lips to eject empties, can't function. | |||
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IMHO, some of these questionable posts are the salvation of a non existent problem.. Ive hunted with a bolt action Mauser, pre 64 mod. 70, Ruger 77, CZ, Brno mod 21 bs 22, for more years than one can count, and never realized it was a problem for those that can chew gum and walk at the same time...Live and learn..  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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What Im seeing in Karoos post is he shoots and animal and it goes down or make a run for it, before he approaches the animal, once he has shot he reloads his magazine, What the hellis wrong with that?? On Dangerous Game, you shoot your buffalo, he humps and runs out of sight, Your in a short waiting game so you reload, It might take that extra rounds to save your bacon, you would be an idiot to approach a Lion or bufflao with a half empty gun or even with one round missing..THE ONLY TIME I WOULD CONDEM PUTTING THAT ONE ROUND IN THE CLIP WOULD BE IS THE ANIMAL IN QUESTION WAS COMMING MY WAY.. Therefore I give the poster a clean bill of health on his practice.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Karoo, I understand your points and here is what works for me. When I buy a firearm that is different from the norm, I spend several evenings conducting dry fire and reloading drills in my home. I do that until I am comfortable with the firearm. Many consider dry drills boring but it is a vital part of firearms proficiency. I do that with any firearm prior to range work or hunting. Extra magazines always help but nothing can replace muscle memory proficiency. Safe shooting. | |||
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I fail to understand why the single stack, single feed magazine seems to be making a comeback in rifles. If they were double stack double feed (and had a reasonably open receiver top) one would be able to top them up without removing the magazine. I would not feel happy with a detachable mag if I didn't have a spare. But maybe that's proving me a hypocrite, since both my primary hunting rifles don't have magazines at all... As for striated triggers, they seem to come into favour, then fall out again periodically. I am fortunate in that it really doesn't bother me. But I do have issues with triggers that aren't crisp. Karoo, just a question: If you were to put a round intot the open action and push it down onto the magazine feed lips, would that depress the next round in the magazine down far enough that the bolt would not pick it up? If so, you could probably load a loose round directly into the chamber, instead of having to pull the magazine out to top it up? | |||
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Good points, SFR. Peter, not sure if I could load like that and will have to check. Don't think so. | |||
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Sounds to me that the issue was solved a century ago with the Lee Speed. Detachable magazine. Crisp trigger. Load with a new mag or recharge the magazine through the top of the action. Use the cutoff, shoot as a single shot and simply drop the next round into the chamber. Other than not seeing many scoped examples and the 303 being standard, what more could you ask for? | |||
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Rule number 1 with DBM rifles . Always buy 2-3 more mags. Ask any steyr rifle owner about mags as rare as rocking horse shit.. | |||
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Most European rifles has had DBM for 50+ years.. 99.98% of all Hunters dont go after DG.. and they are not exactly far away from civilization, so loosing a magazine is of no concern. Although my main two rifles are Mauser based, I actually prefer DBM. I always buy 1-2 spares and keep them loaded in two different pockets. And if all 3 fails or are lost.. I have a single shot rifle, and I have no problems hunting with a single shot rifle. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles Detachable magazines and smooth triggers. Why?
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