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Accuracy of the WSM and WSSM
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Winchester made some big claims about the accuracy of these new rounds. Are they living up to the hype in the accuracy department? I like the idea of a shorter more efficient case, but wont buy one unlees they are inherently more accurate than my current .300 Win mag, 270, and 243. Has the benchrest crowd latched onto any of these rounds for long range matches?
 
Posts: 428 | Location: Bozeman, MT | Registered: 04 January 2005Reply With Quote
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My .270WSM is extremely accurate i just love it!


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Posts: 325 | Location: Cordele, GA | Registered: 24 September 2004Reply With Quote
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In a factory rifle, I would say 70% of the accuracy is determined by the quality of the barrel. 25% by the bedding/gunsmithing. The remaining 5% is "other", including cartridge design.

That said, my 223WSSM is a .5 MOA shooter; it has a Pac Nor barrel. HTH, Dutch.


Life's too short to hunt with an ugly dog.
 
Posts: 4564 | Location: Idaho Falls, ID, USA | Registered: 21 September 2000Reply With Quote
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In a factory 10 lb varmint/target rifle, like a Rem Sendero or Savage model 12, will I notice much differnece in accuracy between different calibers\cartridges (308 vs 30 WSM vs 30-06).
 
Posts: 428 | Location: Bozeman, MT | Registered: 04 January 2005Reply With Quote
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The rifles you already own will shoot just as good as the new cartidges in question.

The benchrest crowd has not taken any of the new Winchester offerings into their elite spector of cartridges to my knowledge.

The 270WSM, 7mm WSM, and 300 WSM are earning a reputation for good accuracy. I have worked with all three and can tell you the ones I played with shot well. However, no better than a similar rifle in 270 Winchester, 7mm Rem Mag, or 300 Win Mag. They are good, to be sure.
But I would not sell a "traditional" belted magnum to buy one. Not a chance.

On the other hand I feel the WSSM cartridges are a mixed bag. The 243 and 25 calibers may work out ok. But I hear a heck of a lot of horror storys about factory rifles in 223 WSSM and the one I owned was plain pitifull.

Again, the point is, if you already own the calibers you mentioned, I would not even consider changing. On the other hand, if a guy wanted his first 300 mag, etc. the new offerings may be the way to go.


R Flowers
 
Posts: 1220 | Location: Hanford, CA, USA | Registered: 12 November 2000Reply With Quote
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The ad hype on the WSM's was and is pure BS and ad hype. THis is a major pet peeve of mine. Most gun writers and readers of gun rags are not engineers or scientists. THey repeat what they read in other mags, and it is total BS. SOme of it is so blatantly assanine, you wonder how htey have the gaul to print it. THis repetition of the rediculous just feeds on itself. The more people read the sam elies, the more they believe it is true.No one ever tries to actually research and go to roigianl sources? Know why? Because the truth is pretty damn boring.

THe WSM's are good cartridges, but there is nothing magic or really new about them. If you are trying to build a rifle as light as psosible, you can save soem weight by going with a shorter action. For a 10# hunting rifle, any of the .30's will be the same, all things equal. Equally good compnenets and work will give you the sam eaccuracy. .30-06, .308, .300 WSM, .300 Win Mag, .300 H&H , .300 Weatherby, .308 Norma, whatever. Of coruse there are variabilities in the components and work, but if you built 10 rifles as identical as possible in each caliber and tested them extensively, you will find that all of the calibers are equally accurate
 
Posts: 2509 | Location: Kisatchie National Forest, LA | Registered: 20 October 2004Reply With Quote
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First of all, I think the "Short Magnums" fill a niche in the market. I have two short magnums, a 6.5 WSM and a .300 WSM and they are both on short actions. I wanted rifles that were a little lighter and a bit more user friendly on the handling side with Magnum performace. That's the niche.

Marc's point is well taken in that if you take a .300 WSM and put it up against a .300 H&H, a .300 Win Mag, a .300 Weatherby and a .300 RUM will there be appreciable accuracy differences? In a non benchrest setting the answer is probably not.

However, I will state that there has got to be something to the Short and Fat cartridge theory otherwise the benchresters would still be shooting .222's and not .22 PPC's.

Just my dos centavos.


May the wind be in your face and the sun at your back.

P. Mark Stark
 
Posts: 1323 | Location: San Antonio, Texas | Registered: 04 March 2003Reply With Quote
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My son has a Win Shadow in 223WSSM and it has turned out to be the worst shooting rifle I have ever fired. Best "groups" were 5". It is, as of today, going back to the factory for their review.
On the other hand, I load for a friends Browning 300WSM, and it shoots good with factory and handloads.
Fred
 
Posts: 620 | Location: Colorado | Registered: 04 January 2005Reply With Quote
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I will not be replacing a current rifle with a WSM, but I am in the market for a new target type rifle (not a benchrest rifle, just an accurate varmint\target rig) and a deer rifle.
 
Posts: 428 | Location: Bozeman, MT | Registered: 04 January 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
but if you built 10 rifles as identical as possible in each caliber and tested them extensively, you will find that all of the calibers are equally accurate


Have you or any one you know of actually done this? Maybe HS Precision or some other company that accuracy tests every rifle may have some data on this. But unless you can point to a specific example you aren't just "repetition of the ridiculous" you're flat making something up.

You do mention variability in components and thats an important point. Measure the base to shoulders on a few different Belted Mag cases and you'll see why the WSM's are often a little more accurate out of the box. I measured the shoulder headspace of virgin 338 Win Mag brass and it was as much as .029 short. 7mm Remington Mags are notorious for having varied dimensions. Certainly you can make accurate rifles in most calibers but there are some that are for whatever reason easier to make shoot accurately. The WSM's are one of them.
For Benchrest shooting the PPC class of cartridges have conclusively proven that they are inherantly more accurate than other cartridges. There may be some hunting cartridges that are more inherantly accurate than others but I've yet to see conclusive proof of which ones, but the WSM's may end up being more likely to be accurate. Time and good data will tell...............DJ


....Remember that this is all supposed to be for fun!..................
 
Posts: 3976 | Location: Oklahoma,USA | Registered: 27 February 2004Reply With Quote
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30cal, in my opinion, the reason we are shooting 6ppc's in benchrest instead of 222's is for two reasons (ONLY):

1) better quality brass available
2) better exterior ballistics of the 6mm bullets.

When the PPC first came out, the brass was breathtakingly uniform. Lapua's still is very, very good.

That said, my 223WSSM has been a joy to work with. The thick brass is a big ole PITA, but it is easier to make shoot than my PPC. JMO, Dutch.


Life's too short to hunt with an ugly dog.
 
Posts: 4564 | Location: Idaho Falls, ID, USA | Registered: 21 September 2000Reply With Quote
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I just shot a buddys .223 WSSM with factory ammo. He bought a Browning A-Bolt with mid-heavy barrel and put a Simmons 6 X 20 scope on it. Including zeroing after bore scoping and moving the group to where we wanted it on the target, we got a .400 group with 16 shots, just nearly one hole. I am an accuracy nut and I thought it was exceptional. Roll Eyes Good shooting.


phurley
 
Posts: 2371 | Location: KY | Registered: 22 September 2004Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by elkhunter:
Winchester made some big claims about the accuracy of these new rounds. Are they living up to the hype in the accuracy department? I like the idea of a shorter more efficient case, but wont buy one unlees they are inherently more accurate than my current .300 Win mag, 270, and 243. Has the benchrest crowd latched onto any of these rounds for long range matches?


The claims are true. No hype and anyone that tried to tell you it is hasn't given one a try. I have a Win. M70 Coyote in .223 WSSM and it started out with a sight in group of just over 1/2" and has only gotten better with load work. My custom .22-250 with it's bull barrel never shot that well even after load work. I also have a Savage M10 in .270 WSM that shot a sight in group of 3/4" and it too has only gotten better. My daughter in-law is shooting another M70 Coyote in .25 WSSM and it more accurate than any of my "Quarter Bores". If you are in the market for a new rifle than don't cheat yourself by not checking out one of the new short magnums from Winchester. They are inherently more accurate. Lawdog
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Posts: 1254 | Location: Northern California | Registered: 22 December 2002Reply With Quote
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Dutch-

I usually don't debate much but, your statements imply that Ferris Pendall and crew developed the PPC .22 or 6 mm, take your pick, for the quality of the brass.

I don't think that was the case, pardon the pun. I believe that they designed the PPC for the reasons of having a short fat powder column with better ignition and burning characteristics. Coincidentially or by design, you have those same factors with the WSM and the WSSM's.

JMO


May the wind be in your face and the sun at your back.

P. Mark Stark
 
Posts: 1323 | Location: San Antonio, Texas | Registered: 04 March 2003Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
Equally good compnenets and work will give you the sam eaccuracy. .30-06, .308, .300 WSM, .300 Win Mag, .300 H&H , .300 Weatherby, .308 Norma, whatever. Of coruse there are variabilities in the components and work, but if you built 10 rifles as identical as possible in each caliber and tested them extensively, you will find that all of the calibers are equally accurate


The test target accuracy of Remington 40X rifles has been published. I recall that the group size increased with the power of the cartridge.


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Posts: 5543 | Registered: 09 December 2002Reply With Quote
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I am well aware of what went into the PPC design, etc, etc.

I want some one to post here why the WSM is more accurate than say a .308. I mean post real reasons and facts. Quoting a gun rag is not fact. That is one problem with our society today is that peopel don't know how to do original source research. And the internet has made this problem worse. I want soem one to post quantifiable measure showing how much more accurate the WSM is than the other rounds. Then I want you to post the formulas used in the calculations to determine which raounds are the most accurate. ANd then I want a brief explanation of the physics and thermodynamics involved in proving why the WSM is superior. Original sources should be quoted. THis will be interesting.
 
Posts: 2509 | Location: Kisatchie National Forest, LA | Registered: 20 October 2004Reply With Quote
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Mark, I don't know if I've seen anyone claim that a WSM is more accurate than a 308, the 308 has a reputation as being a very accurate cartridge. I've been checking around a bit with some manufactures that do accuracy test their rifles in different calibers - if I get some good feed back I'll let you know.
Trying to post formulas and thermodynamic mumbo jumbo is a bunch of BS. If 30 rifles in caliber A average .5 MOA and 30 equivelant rifles in Caliber B average 1.1 MOA then caliber A is going to be a more accurate cartridge isn't it. We'll see if any such comparisons exit.........DJ


....Remember that this is all supposed to be for fun!..................
 
Posts: 3976 | Location: Oklahoma,USA | Registered: 27 February 2004Reply With Quote
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If you could calculate which round would be the most accurate it would have been done long ago. You can develop theories about what makes cartridges accurate and then back it up with a controlled trial. The only sure way to know would be to fire hundreds of thousands of rounds through thousands of different rifles (all as similar as possbile to eliminate errors due to improper bedding and poor barrels.)The worst rifles (those with exccessive standard deviation) would have to be elimintaed from the testing. After the data was gathered a thorough statistical analysis of the data would show which round was more accurate. This is very expensive and is probably never going to happen, so we're stuck using our personal judgment and experience. Has anyone shot two very similar rifles with a standard cartridge and a WSM? How did they compare?

If a round shows enough potential to start winning the majority of bench rest competitions you can pretty much say it is the most accurate round out there. Unfortunately benchrest doesn't take into account the energy of a round, and smaller rounds are easier to shoot accurately due to recoil. Therefore we'll probably never see a magnum adopted by the benchrest crowd.
 
Posts: 428 | Location: Bozeman, MT | Registered: 04 January 2005Reply With Quote
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Mark,

What do you offer? My feeling is that the new short cartridges do have potential and I am using them.

Your example of a 308 vrs a short mag is not reasonable. Go ahead and compare a 300 WM to a 300 WSM. For starters the WSM has better headspace control.

In the mean time why don't YOU go out and prove they are not? While your doing that I am going to do whatever I feel like doing. Smiler


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Posts: 5543 | Registered: 09 December 2002Reply With Quote
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From my experience and the experience of other's I'd be willing to bet that if you took 100 factory rifles in 300 WM and 100 factory rifles in 300 WSM, fed them nothing but virgin factory ammo and tallied the results, the 300 WSM would shoot circles around the 300 WM... belted mag chambers are cut very sloppy from the factory and headspacing on the belt is no big help either. The WSM's have very positive headspace on the ample shoulder and, because of its short-fat profile, the chmaber, of necessity, must be cut a little more carefully.

In a proper custom rifle all bets are off as either will probably out-perform the shooter's ability.

If I were reccomending a 300 Mag to someone who didn't handload my reccomendation would be the 300 WSM (in a model 70 of course!). Factory ammo will outperform the 300 WM in speed and, most likely, accuracy.

My .02
 
Posts: 3526 | Registered: 27 June 2000Reply With Quote
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I do not own any nor have shot any, but am curious.

A few ounces could be saved by the shorter action but then there is decreased magazine capacity, all else equal.

It may be that a spherical cartridge case would be the most uniform pressure vessel and maybe that is why the short cases are more accurate, if true?

How does one shoot a 0.2" group? Benchrest, no wind, a gigantic scope power?

What would make the same bullet more accurate from one cartridge case than another? It would seem that in order for that to happen the only variable is uniformity of bullet velocity.

So if one took a 300 WM, a 300 WSM, and a 300 WSSM to the range and chronographed 10 rounds each, the one with the most uniform velocities (least standard deviation) is going to be inherently more acurate? Is that not true?

Has anyone done this? Surely many have.


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Posts: 19389 | Location: Ocala Flats | Registered: 22 May 2002Reply With Quote
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I think the long range guys have played with the 6.5x300wsm. Don't know if you could get enought case capacity for those LVD in 30cal using the wsm case. They still use the 300win mag in 1000yd matches. They also use a 6br but not a 6ppc.
I don't think in a factory rifle there wouldn't be one more inherently accurate over the other. Just don't work that way otherwise we would all be shooting the same caliber. If you build say a 30-06,308,300win mag and 300wsm everything the same except chamber they should shoot pretty close group wise. Only difference is amount of powder and velocity.
I think the wsm is a good case can take alot of presure. I'm having a 300win mag build with a Kreiger barrel in 1/10 twist kind of go along with the custom 300wsm with a Broughton 5c 1/12 twist barrel. I've also got acouple of 30-338 one has a 1/10 the other a 1/12 twist barrel. I had a custom 300win mag with a 1/10 twist lilja barrel that I gave my nephew for his elk and deer rifle so now that new one is it's replacemment. Now as to velocity say between those four rifles the 300wsm is in the 300wby range. I have one of those also. I put the velocity gain with the 300wsm to the 5c barrel. I picked up a Tikka 300wsm t3(blue) last year haven't done a thing to it and it's good for less than 1" for three shot at 100yds and it's velocity is more in line with the 300win mag and 30-338. My smallest groups so far with the custom 300wsm has been in the .4's for 5 shot and that was like the others which one would expect in a custom. I was around when the 300win mag came out and the questions you are asking are about the same that was asked of the 300win mag guys back then didn't like it because of the short neck etc alot figured they would used the 30-338 case so when they didn't was kind of a build in hate right away for the 300. I honestly believe Win learned a lesson from those early days of the 338case. Rem beat them to the 7mag and Hunginton did the wildcat 30-338. They pretty much cover all bases now with the wsm and wssm case. I kind of like each case to stand on it's own merit and I don't look at the 300wsm as a replacement but more as an addition. Well good luck


VFW
 
Posts: 1098 | Location: usa | Registered: 16 March 2001Reply With Quote
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The WSMs have been sold as taking accuracy to a new level, but I don't buy it. Great theory, and I'm glad there are those about who buy the snakeoil pitch, but in practice, I've seen and owned too many tackdriving belted magnums in various calibers over the last 28 years to ever buy the idea that the old belted rounds just can't cut it for accuracy anymore, or that the WSMs are wonderous new cartridge that provide a level of accuracy that's never been available to the public before.

I own custom .300 Win. Mags. (currently four) that'll all keep five shots with premium bullets in groups of under .500" at 100 yds. and under 1" at 200 yds., and some groups are even smaller than that, plus .338s, .375s, and .416s that are astoundingly accurate. Heck, I bought a 100% factory-original, stock, 1963-vintage Remington 700 BDL 7mm Rem. Mag. recently that keeps five rounds under 3/4" at 100 yds. with 150 gr. Federal factory ammo. No tuning, no trigger adjustment, no bedding, just a properly-installed scope and a box of factory ammo I bought cheap at a gunshow.

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quote:
Originally posted by tom holland:
I think the long range guys have played with the 6.5x300wsm. Don't know if you could get enought case capacity for those LVD in 30cal using the wsm case. They still use the 300win mag in 1000yd matches. They also use a 6br but not a 6ppc.
I don't think in a factory rifle there wouldn't be one more inherently accurate over the other. Just don't work that way otherwise we would all be shooting the same caliber. If you build say a 30-06,308,300win mag and 300wsm everything the same except chamber they should shoot pretty close group wise. Only difference is amount of powder and velocity.
I think the wsm is a good case can take alot of presure. I'm having a 300win mag build with a Kreiger barrel in 1/10 twist kind of go along with the custom 300wsm with a Broughton 5c 1/12 twist barrel. I've also got acouple of 30-338 one has a 1/10 the other a 1/12 twist barrel. I had a custom 300win mag with a 1/10 twist lilja barrel that I gave my nephew for his elk and deer rifle so now that new one is it's replacemment. Now as to velocity say between those four rifles the 300wsm is in the 300wby range. I have one of those also. I put the velocity gain with the 300wsm to the 5c barrel. I picked up a Tikka 300wsm t3(blue) last year haven't done a thing to it and it's good for less than 1" for three shot at 100yds and it's velocity is more in line with the 300win mag and 30-338. My smallest groups so far with the custom 300wsm has been in the .4's for 5 shot and that was like the others which one would expect in a custom. I was around when the 300win mag came out and the questions you are asking are about the same that was asked of the 300win mag guys back then didn't like it because of the short neck etc alot figured they would used the 30-338 case so when they didn't was kind of a build in hate right away for the 300. I honestly believe Win learned a lesson from those early days of the 338case. Rem beat them to the 7mag and Hunginton did the wildcat 30-338. They pretty much cover all bases now with the wsm and wssm case. I kind of like each case to stand on it's own merit and I don't look at the 300wsm as a replacement but more as an addition. Well good luck


If I remember right didn't just last year some guy using a 7mm WSM win two long range events using, of all things, a "cheap, ugly" Savage rifle. Setting a World Record in one event. Not even an expensive custom Savage rifle. I believe you are going to be seeing more and more events being won by these "short, fat" cartridges in the future. Lawdog
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Posts: 1254 | Location: Northern California | Registered: 22 December 2002Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by tom holland:
I kind of like each case to stand on it's own merit and I don't look at the 300wsm as a replacement but more as an addition.


Tom, I think that's one of the better points about the WSM's I've seen made. The way some people talk you'd think that once the WSM's were introduced the older belted mags were banned from the face of the earth.
I have a couple very accurate 300 Win Mags but they are a good bit heavier than my very Accurate 300 WSM's. The old rifles are still good but it's nice to have something new, different and in some ways improved. Admittedly if I had an E'chols legend 300 Win Mag like AD, I probably wouldn't ever need any other 300 Mag, but I might just try one just to play with something different.
My personal experience with maybe 7-9 300 Win Mags, 4 300 Weatherby mags, 4 300 Ultra mags, and 5 300 WSM's has been that the 300 WSM is a little easier to get to shoot well. The brass is thick and hard and doesn't have to be fireformed to get the headspace right on the shoulder. The 300 Ultra's have all shot extremely well but they are harder to shoot well. The 300 Wins and Weatherby's have always shot plenty good enough for hunting. Try em all just for fun.............DJ


....Remember that this is all supposed to be for fun!..................
 
Posts: 3976 | Location: Oklahoma,USA | Registered: 27 February 2004Reply With Quote
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If I remember right didn't just last year some guy using a 7mm WSM win two long range events using, of all things, a "cheap, ugly" Savage rifle. Setting a World Record in one event. Not even an expensive custom Savage rifle. I believe you are going to be seeing more and more events being won by these "short, fat" cartridges in the future. Lawdog
Wink[/QUOTE] I read something about a Savage last year at a 1000yd match in Colorado. Guy did the work himself but it was pretty tricked out rifle. It wasn't an off the shelve rifle. I don't keep up with the records etc on those matches I look more at calibers.
With the 204 ruger plus the wssm be interesting to see whats around in a year or two.


VFW
 
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