I picked up a box of 8x57mm Sellier & Bellot 196gr soft point "cutting edge" ammo recently. Is this closer to real European ballistics for this caliber than the wimpy Remington stuff we normally find here in the US?

S&B's website shows 2,592 at the muzzle for this load.

Long ago I could get Norma 196gr ammo that was a bit peppier, but I don't see it offered anymore.

Rick,

That S&B 8x57 JS ammo is about as hot as you are going to find on this side of the pond. My son hunts with the 196-grain cutting-edge ammo and we found that it chronos quite a bit hotter out of his K98 than the advertised 2600 fps. It also shoots quite good. He only shot one deer with it this year, but it went straight down to the dirt.

RWS factory loads are supposed to be a little hotter than the S&B, but I have not seen any over here, and if I did, it would cost at least twice as much as the S&B.

If you are looking for European velocities, stay away from American 8mm loads and Privi Partizan loads stamped "8mm Mauser." this load is intended for American consumption and their 196-grain load chronos at 2200 fps, or less.

However, If you can find Priv Partizan, 196-grain ammo entitled 8x57 JS, then you have found their European 8mm load, and it spits out bullets at nearly 2500 fps. I have not seen this loading on this side of the pond, except under the Wolf Gold name (which is produced by Privi). Since Wolf states that their ballistics for the 196-grain load are exactly the same as the Privi Partizan 8x57 JS ballistics, one must assume that they are utilizing Privi's 8x57 JS loads in their boxes.

BTW, I handload for the 8mm, and I shoot 195-grain Hornadys at 2500 fps. This is considerably hotter than American factory stuff, but not as hot as the S&B. I found that loading to S&B ballistis takes a toll on my brass (and shoulder). Besides, If it won't die from nearly 200 grains of bullet hitting it at 2500 fps, then it just don't need killin'! (at least, not by me)

Gahunter,

Thanks, my wife and I are going to South Africa in June for plains game. She will be shooting her little Mauser sporter with a handload using the Nosler 200gr Accubond and a near max load of Varget. I haven't chrono'd it but it shoots one hole at 50 yards and is spot on with the iron sights (she doesn't like scopes).
I was wondering what kind of recoil she is looking at if the luggage gorilla loses ours and she has to use factory ammo. The S&B stuff seems to shoot OK, and recoil is less than her normal load.

I have no idea what the construction of the of the S&B bullet is like. Supposedly, the cut on the cutting edge bullet acts like an expansion crimp to slow expansion down after initial upset, creating weight retention and penetration.

Regarless of whether or not this is true, velocity is low enough that even a soft 196-grain bullet should be just fine on anything you want to shoot, up to and including kudu.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick R:
I picked up a box of 8x57mm Sellier & Bellot 196gr soft point "cutting edge" ammo recently. Is this closer to real European ballistics for this caliber than the wimpy Remington stuff we normally find here in the US?

Yes.

quote:

S&B's website shows 2,592 at the muzzle for this load.

I've found that the S&B and RWS factory ammo specs have some of the highest velocities listed for the 8x57JS.



As you noted, the S&B 196 gr SPCE ammo has a factory spec muzzle velocity of 2592 fps (790 meters per sec). I chronographed some from my Rem Model 700 Classic in 8x57 and got an average muzzle velocity (10 shots) of 2647 fps. (Instrumental, not corrected back to the muzzle.) Not too shabby.

Cheers!
-Bob F.

quote:

Originally posted by GAHUNTER:
I have no idea what the construction of the of the S&B bullet is like. Supposedly, the cut on the cutting edge bullet acts like an expansion crimp to slow expansion down after initial upset, creating weight retention and penetration.

Regarless of whether or not this is true, velocity is low enough that even a soft 196-grain bullet should be just fine on anything you want to shoot, up to and including kudu.

I can tell you the vorkings of the S&B bullets, they have the thinnest cup I have yet to see on a bullet, any thinner and they would be called copparwashed bullets.

On inpact they are explosive and break up in parts real quick, I consider then varmint ammo in so much that they will not penetrate a 100 Lbs boar, a moose calf and I for one would not go hunting in Africa with then, call be backwards if you like.

there are a bunch of great 8 mm bullets to be used, Woodleigh does one if one likes the classic looks, AB and partions are available, TSX to btw.

I bought a box full 1000 bullets 286 grains in 9,3 and 100 in 8 mm to use for target practice, I hade 7 bullets that had loose cores in them, not beneficial to good accuracy.


Still if tested by the hunter and accepted in effect S&B hunting ammo is of Ok quality, the practice ammo cranked out by S&B that is available here in Sweden is suspect to high pressures and bad cases.

Best regards Chris

Husqvarna M98,
Sounds worse than my handloads! Hopefully everyting will go well and we'll be using the Accubonds.

Does anyone have an idea what type of 8x57 hunting ammo you'd likely find at the local Feed n Seed in South Africa?

I have not bought any South African ammo for about 15 years now, but one brand which was available there then was Musgrave. All the Musgrave brand I had (several case quantities) was made by Hirtenberger, and was in .270 Win. and a couple of the metric chamberings such as 7x64, but not the 8x57JS.

Anyway, I would never buy any Musgrave brand again unless I could be assured it was NOT made by Hirtenberger. The bullets seemed okay, though with very large exposed lead softpoints of ordinary cup 'n core construction. The velocities and pressures were, however, very erratic with the pressures often too high to want to put through my rifles again.

Hopefully that has all improved and one of our RSA members can tell you the current scoop on 8x57JS ammo commonly available there now and where one might buy it.

Can't answer for the S&B 8x57, but I've used it in both 6.5x55 and 9.3x62. It works well in both those calibers. Seems really accurate in my rifles, averaging right at 1 inch groups for both.

I've shot mulies, whitetails and pronghorns with the S&B rounds. I've never noticed the coming apart or exploding, but to be perfectly honest, I haven't recoverd any of the bullets either. They made holes on both sides of all the animals I've hit with them, and that is all I ask of a bullet.

I wouldn't hesitate to try them. Get some and shoot them and see how your rifle likes them. My Rem Model 700 Classic in 6.5x55 likes the S&B 131 gr loads so well, that I don't even try to beat it with handloads anymore. And at less than $10 a box on sale, the price is right too. I loaded up the last time Natchez had them on sale, and probably have enough to last the rest of my life.

If I ever decide to shoot an elk with the 6.5. I'd load a Nosler or a Barnes, but for deer and antelope, I'm sold on the S&B's.

Mac

I have shot quite a bit of factory S&B ammo with that particular bullet loaded to about 2550 fps (out of an 8x64S). The bullet worked fine for me, although the quarry was quite a bit lighter than the heavier African plains game. I mostly shot fallow and piggies (up to, maybe, 70-80 kg dressed).

quote:

Originally posted by GAHUNTER:
Supposedly, the cut on the cutting edge bullet acts like an expansion crimp to slow expansion down after initial upset, creating weight retention and penetration.

I could not tell if this is true or not. The original intent of the "cutting edge" (German: "Scharfrand"), is to cut a nice open entry wound which bleeds freely, and to leave hair at the point of impact. This is a great feature if you have to look for game.

- mike

Hi
I used so called cutting edge SPCE factory load for hunting roe deer a couple of years ago . the result was 1/4 of the meat spoiled.the roe died very fast ,but inside the poor deer looked liked minced meat and blod. very nice for varmint shootig , but not for big game . the distance was 350+ steps and not exactly close shot. if you want a good S&B load för big game , then you should choose their 220 grain sierra loading , very nice mushrooming and good pentration on big game .
cheers
dan

In UK I used to really search to get South African PMP 303 ammunition in preference to S & B. Here are my comments on it from April 1997:

"In terms of performance the South African PMP appears ballistically identical to the UK Mk7 and Mk7z in that they match POA exactly at 100 yards for ALL THREE ammunition types.

PMP and Mk7z are the most accurate, giving 1" groups; Czech S & B also gave groups of 1" or just over but shoots higher than UK Mk7z at 100 yards".

And in May 2002:

"Shooting at 300 and 500 yards there is little to choose between the S & B and British Mk7z. Both well capable of holding the bull - even at 500 yards - but possibly more potential "V" bulls in the S & B bullet? Note at 500 yards the British Mk7z shoots to POA and the S & B shoots slightly higher".

So accuracy is not a worry with S & B I can assure you.

So in terms of accuracy I think that S & B is good ammunition. I have never used their hunting loads and so cannot comment on their soft-point bullet performance.