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| One of Us |
Would yall say that with the invention of better bullets and powders in the last 5-10 years it has pushed a rifles capabilities further? For instance with the bonded bullets or Barnes TSX is the minimum cartridge needed for big game dropped down a bit. 7mm and 30-06 for elk and African plains game today where as in my fathers days a 300win was minimum. I was talking with a guy who went to Africa with his 7-08 and had 16 one shot kills on plains game with modern reloading components. He did this without losing a single animal or passing on animals for the "perfect shot". Interested to hear your thoughts. | ||
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Perry, From my personal experiences I am starting to doubt that the Barnes Tsx offers anything over a comparable Nosler Partition. Nosler's own bonded bullet is good and so are a few others, but if you want to use a small (for game) calibre I think you want a super penetrator like the old style Barnes X or Failsafe kin. An animal with tore up lungs is going to die and it doesn't much matter what bullet did it as long as the bullet expanded and then held together long enough to do the deed. The idea that the 300 win. is a good Elk killer and the 30-06 is not......Well the guys that actually believe that need to get away from work and go hunting more! | |||
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I don't think I can believe that. I'd bet that either the 7mag or 06 has taken more large animals than all the other calibers combined. I agree that it helps with marginal shots, but you still need to make those shots. A poor shot with a "premium" bullet is just as poor as one with a standard bullet. As for the 300 mag being an elk rifle, I think that that is an internet phenomenon. I grew up around hunters and only knew a couple of people that even owned them and those guys rarely used them for hiunting. Everything was 270, 06 or 7mag for the larger animals.  | |||
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I would agree that bullets have gotten better. Think this allows for some shots now that would have been better suited for larger caliber/heavier bullets in past. Mostly thinking of bone breaking or complete penetration cases where before lighter bullets may have broken apart or only made one hole. But... I don't think better bullets make up for marginal shots or poor marksmanship! ________ Ray | |||
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| One of Us |
I am not so sure bullets have gotten better. I think that more companies are making better bullets now than before. Ackley was using something along the Barnes x Bullets years before Barnes came out with them. And prior to Nosler stopping production of their lathe turned partitions (am guessing 1975) this bullet was as good if not better than most bullets being offered now. But we have many more choices now a days and that is sweet. My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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Nope. I've been using Nosler Partition Jacket bullets since 1961, and none of the new designs are any better! However, maybe overall accuracy of today's bullets is somewhat better, as the precision with which bullet jackets are made has improved, and of course there's no concentricity problems with coreless bullets..... "Bitte, trinks du nicht das Wasser. Dahin haben die Kuhen gesheissen." | |||
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I think our bullets are better. And I don't mean just the "magic" bullets that kill merely by being shown to the quarry. Remington, Winchester, et al, haven't been sitting on their hands. And we have some new cartridges that are a definite asset to hunting. The 7-08 comes to mind. The dark side of the situation is that we have too many hunters that have bought into the hype and think if they buy whatever boomer is popular and stoke it up with the latest magic bullet, their commitment is done. Forget practice; forget woods skills. Just spray and pray. | |||
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The new Barnes bullet requires a credit check and a loan application to buy them. I read something around $30 for 20? Sorry Barnes, after my wife raids my paycheck there is only enough left for factory second Nosler Partitions. ZM | |||
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After more than 30 years of hunting, I've yet to see any premium bullet beat Nosler's partition, baseed on price, and performance. No doubt some bullets can do better, but they won't do both as well as the partition has. | |||
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I think most of the new fangled bullets have been developed to keep up with the new velocities that the new wave magnums have developed. The old sytle of cup bullets just can't stand up to the increased velocities. The only easy day is yesterday! | |||
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Given the same shot placement, I would say, yes, the new bullets, Barnes in particular, work better. I can count on Barnes to hold together at 20 yards and expand at 400, while penetrating out the other side. | |||
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Barnes: Unless you have a batch of those who don't. I have shot Barnes I loved and killed like the hammer of Thor, and shot those, 30 caliber 165 XBT of a generation or two ago nose profile, that penciled in and out on rib shots. Others have said the same but Barnes released some not so reliable hunting bullets. As far as I know, Nosler Partition don't fail by design flaws. Failures are accidents of chance like all things are subject to. "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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After the primary requirement for goodmarkmanship, I would say that in certain circumstances where you have a marginal cartridge in your hand,and more penetration is required, then yes, modern pills with apropriate expansion, high weight retention and improved ballistic design for downrange performance are an improvement. That does not mean i see no use for magnums. some of these prem.bullets have less than ideal geometry for flight,and the extra speed/energy is needed to maintain the capable range or make the most of the versatility of a tough bullet at varied ranges. Thats why a 300weath would be my choice if consistently running the northfork200gn. Another combo I like is the 160FS7mmRm. The 7mm08 also really benefits from tough 140tsx type pills, where you dont have the powder capacity to run 160gn pills at the velocity you want. I like very much the nostalgic idea of 175gnRN 7x57 at moderate velocity in an original oberndorfM98 for hunting wild boar in the forest. But I cannot deny that tecnology like the following do have merit: -GSCustom bullets that give superior bullet design geometry for downrange performance,integrity,and higher vel than conventional pills at the same pressure - modern reciever alloys that allow full pressure potential of cartridges - Polygonal rifled barrels that give increased velocity for the same load and barrel length as traditional tubes -Material technologies like SynthStocks/stability,weight,recoilpad efficiency/effectiveness - Barrel porting,recoil reducers. these give us an efficient, potent for size package,pleasnt to shoot, with great versatility.And yes I believe with such technology changes it is possible to do very closely with a modern 7x57 what one used to do so happily with a 7mmRm154/160gncorelokt/spirepoint at 2950. Doesnt necessarily make one more right than the other,you just have more choice as to how you would like to do it these days. | |||
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as a historical counterpoint the 7mmRemMag was originally developed as an "elk killer", so there is nothing special about it being regarded as an elk killer today. And though someone once argued with me about it because I couldn't cite source part of the acceptance test for the 30-06 (and it's predecessors) was the ability to kill a horse Killing an elk is about the same... the Nosler partition has been around for what? Forty years? or is it fifty? it still kills as well as anything else out there... as for TSX's being different in terminal performance as compared to earlier X-bullets? Not so sure about that.... I buy that in INTERNAL ballistics they are better because of their reduced bearing area, but if there's a real difference in impact behavior, orther than the reduced tendence to swage closed if they impact on thin skin over heavy bone. And the idea that african plains animals are any harder to kill than animals of similar size is rediculous and IMO PURELY a product of the "african mystique society" Though if they want to prove me wrong by having me shoot plains animals (IN africa. at THEIR expense) with american calibers and hunting bullets I'll provide my own ammo and be ready to go on a weeks notice. (I'll leave the X-bullets and Fail-safe's home) I've got time... just tell me when and where.... I read another post in the african hunting forum about a guy who shot a wildebeast with a 45-70 and was decrying it's inadequacy, because he only nicked a lung and missed the heart and had to track the animal for 2km... Like a bullet following the same path from a 416Mag would have made a difference... AllanD If I provoke you into thinking then I've done my good deed for the day! Those who manage to provoke themselves into other activities have only themselves to blame. *We Band of 45-70er's* 35 year Life Member of the NRA NRA Life Member since 1984 | |||
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The bottom line: Obviously have bullets improved tremendously over the years. That does not say that the older generation bullets can't do the job, they still can, but new generation bullets do it só much more efficiently! To say that a better bullet makes a marginal shooter a better shooter is absolute nonsense. A marginal shooter will stay one until such time as the guy practice a lot more, spend more time hunting and taking better care of his equipment and learn from his new found practical experience. | |||
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But the original post asked "In the last 5-10 years" What exactly is "new" in the last 5-10 years? The winchester Failsafe? it's a re-hashed X-bullet with a lead back core. The Nosler Accubond? Sounds like they are reacting to the bonded core in the Swift Scirocco and others. the Polymer tips adapted by Hornady and Sierra? That was "New" in the mid 80's with Nosler's ballistic tips. Swift's A-frame isn't "new" So what bullets are really "new" in the last 5-10 years? I see some slight improvements and "flaw correction" to "premium" bullets introduced in the 1980's, but nothing really "new". AllanD If I provoke you into thinking then I've done my good deed for the day! Those who manage to provoke themselves into other activities have only themselves to blame. *We Band of 45-70er's* 35 year Life Member of the NRA NRA Life Member since 1984 | |||
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AllanD wrote:
To mention just one bulletmaker's products: GSC launched the GSC FN in 1997 - the best solid DG bullet on the market - that's within the last ten years. Then their GSC HP since 1993 and thereafter their GSC HV - definitely premium bullets launched after the 1980's! Visit their web site to learn more about their products and to see what realy happened in the last 5 - 10 years - GSC Custom. And this part by SpringTrap is still a fact:
OWLS My Africa, with which I will never be able to live without! | |||
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Well stated  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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| one of us |
Bullets have gotten better over the years. In a way we have it so good now a days that its hard to belive there was a time when it was not always the case. Nosler got the ball rolling back in the late 1940's and its still a standard to which all bullets are compaired. The real bullet revolution got going in the late 1970's and been going ever since. What you have going today is that you can take a cartridge like a 30-06 and with say 165 gr bullets, you can have a soft one for light game like a Speer Sp for the heavier stuff you can go to a Nosler Partition and for heavy game you could go to a failsafe or barnes X and chance are they will all shoot close enough to now worry to much about it for most of the time. And you have 98 % of the world big game covered. That is what the bullet revolution has given hunters. | |||
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IMR 4831 and H-414 and other slow burning powders have been around for a long time.....other slow burning powders have not really been a big boost to todays cartridges but IMO bullets have progressed dramatically. I'm not sure that the .30-06 has replaced the .300 magnums but I'd believe the 165 grain premium bullets have replaced thew old 180 grainers...more that type of gain. The 300 mags have actually never been that much better than the .30-06 or 7MM Rem Mag and both these cartridges are as good as it gets today as ever and as good as is needed anywhere short of DG. Today my featherweight is my #1 big game gun and I have no use for anything bigger until I decide to shoot at things that create return destruction.....cape buff as an example. If nothing else the premium bullets have given me much greater sence of credibility with the old '06.......but it isn't heads and tails above what it always was. In fact it's been the standard of excellence by which the others were judged for years.......and it just works a little better today. The .270 used to be a "marginal" elk cartridge and today with premium bullets I'd not hesitate to take one elk hunting assuming I had nothing else. No question about it, premium bullets have raised the bar of old cartridges.....and just enough to get this old codger to throw out the also always marginally better magnums. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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