I sure have been reading a lot about the 8mm Remington Magnum and 9.3X62 lately. Does anybody think these two great cartridges might actually become somewhat widespread after all the years that no one has bought them? Just thought I'd throw this out there to see what people though.

The 9.3 has been widespread for the past 100 years, the U.S. being the exception. Thankfully, global shipping, the internet and international hunting are allowing shooters in the U.S. to experience a cartridge that others have enjoyed for nearly a ccentury.
As for the 8mm, the trend away from belted cases will eventually doom all but the .375 H&H. The 8x68S has always had a good following overseas.

The 8mm Rem. Mag. has had 24 years to catch on, but it hasn't, and in my opinion, it's unlikely to on a widespread basis, and it will probably continue to decline in popularity. This is too bad, because it's a great cartridge.

The idea that all belted cartridges will fall by the wayside except for the .375 H&H is a long way from coming true. Individually, and in comparison to the great .375 H&H, there are more 7mm Remington, .300 Winchester, and .338 Winchester rifles in circulation than there are .375 H&H rifles by a score of at least 100 to 1 (possibly even more). Not only that, but the .300 Winchester is still responsible for more reloading die sales for RCBS than any other belted magnum to this very day.

AD

Took the 338 Win Mag almost 30 years to catch on, but will have to agree, the 8mm Mag is probably a dead dog. Too bad too, as it is a hell of a cartridge. If I were a hardcore Elk hunter, that would be my cartridge of choice.

Much like Allen has said, I doubt all belted cartridges will die out in the wake of the new beltless variety. there are simply too many proven rounds, and too many crmudgens to flock around the 7mag, 300 winchester, 338wincheter,etc. However, my guess is the new wave of beltless-mags will be the final nails in the coffins of those belted rounds which have long since been left in the dust.

As to the movemnet around the 9.3x62, my guess is it will probably take off pretty well witht he greater supply of bullets and at least one gun maker offering it for export to the US. However, I think that also, 9.3x74R has a potential to cross the Atlantic as well, now that Pedersoli makes a double rilfe in that caliber for around $2 grand. Might just catch on to the real nuts who keep the industry going.

With premium bullets in .323 the 8x68S should be a real banger. I would buy one, problem is, hardly anybody chambers it. Steyr, Sauer ( Blaser ).

If CZ made one, I would buy it on the spot.

200 grs Nosler or 220 grs A Frame ...

Hermann

P.S.: got my 9.3x62 already

I think the 338 Winchester and 375 H&H will continue to dominate the over 30 caliber market and for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, both calibers fit the "survival" mode of one rifle for everything and factory ammo availability becomes an issue in that direction of thinking.

Secondly, the 375 H&H simply has its thing and it is that "thing" that allows prices to be charged that the market will bear. The 375 is the bottom end of the big stuff and has the combination of practiality and the pizzaz factor. On the other hand the 338 Win is the top end of the small stuff and is marketed in 270 type rifles.

Also, both the WSMs and Rem Ultras are handicapped by not being suitable for the standard 30/06 action as are the 300 Winchester and 338 Winchester.

Mike

Over the next 25 years I foresee a steady decline in new rifle production for belted cartridges. This doesn't mean that existing rifles will vanish. It only means that the new gun market will be dominated by new (and old)efficient beltless cases. Once Winchester and Remington are thru unveiling the whole line of short and ultra mags, practically every belted cartridge will fall by the wayside. Only the ones with an added appeal, like the H&H, will continue to find a home in new production rifles.

Kurt,

Back in the 80s all the gunwriters were predicting that 416 resurrection would see the end of the 375 and 458. Well Sierra still don't make a 416 bullet and the 458 Win opposition must surely be the 458 Lott.

About the 1990s when Winchester reintroduced CRF that was seen by many as the end of the Rem 700.

This might sound a bit silly, but I think for the average gun buyer the big thing a 300 Winchester has over the 300 WSM is that it is a more impressive looking caliber. I also think the average gun buyer wnats the most for his money and that will be the long action rifle rather than th little short action.

Also, by far and away the majority of gun buyers in both our countries don't buy gun magazines or read gun forums.

Having said all of that it will depend in the end as to what the gun dealers both stock and push.

We should really archive these various threads on what will happen with different calibers

By the way, I have almost a 100% failure rate in predictions, so on that basis the 300 Win etc will move to Chapter 2 of Cartridges of the World. But then again the law of averages might mean I get it right this time

Mike

[ 05-27-2002, 10:18: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

Mike375

By the time there is a noticeable difference in trends, I will be too old to care.

As I surf through the various forums and links, I see an overwhelming interest in:

1. New beltless cases from the big names.

2. Proprietary beltless cases from little names.

3. Old beltless cases from the past.

The WinMags and the H&H's will still be popular long after I'm in chapter 2 of COTW, but I would bet any amount that we have seen our last new belted case from a big name. I also think the ammo makers will carry less and less loadings for them as well. Belted cases will keep the reloading industry in business, though.

Few rifle shooters know much about the belted cases. On this forum it's the opposite and many here are very up to date.

So from what Allen Day said we will have to see what really happens.

As we know rifles last for a long, long time. I just got a .300 H&H made in 1962 and the barrel is like new inside. It was hunted but not fired much. So they last for generations.

If I bought a new rifle it would be rimless but not belted. Right now I am thinking of buying a M-70 in 7mm WSM.

So the mfgs' have thrown up half a dozen new short mags against the wall. There is room for only two to stick. But the next round may be some with a COL of 3.3" We shall see.

Most of these new cartridges are really good I think, especially the WSM lineup. They'll get even better as time goes on, and as sales increase. The biggest strike against them at this time is that they are "short & fat", which is a phenomenon that does not lend it self to perfect, effortless feeding out of the magazine. In time, some smart riflemakers (custom) will create better, mathematically-correct magazine boxes and followers which will allow these rounds to feed like a fine .30-06 does. I predict that new propellants will also be offered that really get the most out of these cases.

I suspect that the new cartridges which won't make it (long-term) are those from the small manufacturers (remember the fate of the Imperial Magnums and the Arnold Magnums?) and Remington's Ultra-Mags. Small manufacturers have a long history of failure in this country, and the Ultra-Mags kick too much, make too much noise, and have a shockingly short barrel life to become widely-popular. How short a barrel life? I've heard of several .300 RUMs that were shot after something like 800 rounds!

AD

Allen Gore, the .338 winnie caught on very quickly and took most of the steam out of the the .35 whelen.

The 9.3x62 is a calibre I would like to own one day, I was thinking of trading my 30/30 for a cz in 9.3x62 at some stage.

Fashions change. Just a few years ago, most people had forgotten that the .22 Hornet even existed. Now, a given rifle will bring a premium chambered for the Hornet.

And it is true that the .338 took a long time to really catch on. Probably three times as many .338's have been sold in the last fourteen years of its existence than in the first thirty (after all, Remington only began producing .338 ammunition within the last decade or so).

I see much the same revived interest in the 8mm Remington as in the .22 Hornet (and .220 Swift, and a few others). This is evidenced by new 8mm bullets from manufacturers, like the Partition and Ballistic Tip from Nosler. Will the 8mm Remington ever be truly popular and common? Of course not, that slot is already taken by the .338. But more and more custom rifles will be chambered for it, and perhaps a "retro" factory chambering or two will come along.

I agree that no new factory belted cartridges are likely to be introduced by manufacturers -- THEY'VE ALREADY BEEN INTRODUCED! There just aren't any gaps in the belted magnum line based on the H & H case, whether full length or shortened. This doesn't mean that belted chamberings will loose their popularity. The bulk sale of sporting rifles will continue to be through the Walmart-type outlets, and they will be offering primarily standbys like .243, .270, .30-06, 7mm Remington, and .300 Winchester.

The WSM's and the like will never sell in huge numbers, simply because the ammunition will be more expensive and you won't find the gun on the shelf at the local discout store; therefore Joe Sixpack won't be buying one.

This is a long, and opionated post, that will not set well with many, but it is my sincere belief that it is fact!

I've always been of the opinion that Remington has an unfortunate habit of hanging stupid names on cartridges, that do not set well with the general public! There is nothing more nebulous than the whims of the rifle buying public, but some things seem to really turn them off. Remington seems to have found most of the turn-offs , in nameing their cartridges, of which none are Remington developements, but successful wildcats they claimed, and ruined by their nameing.

244 Rem, 6mm Rem = both the same cartridge! The 243 Win out sold both of them by leaps and bounds.

280, to 7mm express, back to 280 Rem, all the same cartridge, That should have been named
"7mm-06 Rem",or 284-06, and they couldn't have made the fast enough.

8mm Rem Mag, which should have been named "323NE", 0r "323-375NE" and offered it in two identical bullets, one soft , and one solid, aimed at dangerous game hunting in Alaska, you know, KODIAK BEAR. The "8MM" only brings to mind, the 8mm Mauser, and did not inspire, the basicly balisticly ignorant, average K-Mart Remington buyer, with enough exotic mystery.

The 7mm Rem Mag should have been named 7mm-338 mag. or 284-338 Mag

The 41 Rem Mag, a very fine pistol cartridge, did not woo the buyer with a "POWER" tag to it's name, and let it play second fiddle to the 44 Rem Mag,( which is really only a .429 actually less that a 43 cal, but the name did it) when there is less than .02 difference in the bore dia between the two. .410 to .429 and an animal can't tell the difference. It should have been named the 411 Rem Mag. This would have sold both cartridges, not made them compete.

Where Remington has failed in their marketing many times, and lost many very fine cartridges, like the 8mmRem Mag,Weatherby has been, sucessfully, doing the smoke, and mirrors thing for years, by simply nameing their cartridges to fool the unschooled. They simply name the round to give the impression that it is a little larger, in bore diameter, than it's competition. The 460 Wby Mag, actually a .458, the 378 Wby Mag, actually a 375, the 340 Wby Mag, actually a .338 and so on down the scale. My father was one who was fooled by this misunderstading. He would not shoot 30 gov ammo in his 30-06, because he thought the "06" on the 30-06 was .06 larger than the "30" gov rounds. No amount of talking would convence him they were exactly the same cartridge. To the deer hunter, who has not been around much, this inflates his idea of what he is actually buying. It's called MARKETING by some, and it works, but I call it deceptive marketing. The other thing that Weatherby does is, to tout their "DOUBLE RADIUS" case design, which is only a gimmic to make the shooter buy only Weatherby ammo, and componants, nothing more, because it does absolutely nothing a regular shoulder wouldn't do as well,given the same powder capacity.

Some other things are advertized, into the ground, to draw attention away from weaknesses of their actions. These things are like Remingtons "THREE RINGS OF SAFETY", nothing more than a gimic to justify their makeing a cheap push feed action. Weatherby's "SIX LOCKING LUGS" which give the mistaken impression of more strength than the Mauser type of lug. If you take the six lug action, and put Machinest's dye on the surfaces of these six lugs, and turn the bolt home. Then pull the bolt, and see how much contact the lugs actually make with their mateing surfaces. In most of the cases I've tried, the actual contact will be less the the Mauser, and is certainly nothing to justify a push feed action in a rifle chambered for dangerous game.

It seems cartridges, with a "MM" attatched to them, do not fare well with American buyers, but a meaningless thing like "MAGNUM" does. The "NE" tag, brings to mind Cape Buffalo, and the like, though the "NE" only stands for NITRO CELLULOUSE powder,instead of black powder, which all the above listed cartridges are. Anything with "06" hung on the back end, seems to appeal to the mostly "Urban" American deer hunter, who has absolutely no idea what most of the names mean, but if they sound powerfull,or are attached to the old 30-06, he will buy them! The facination with the 45-70 for AFRICA, is one of those things that the deer hunter dreams of, and is angered when told his ideas are wrong. WELL IT's A 45 caliber, big bore "buffalo" cartridge, ain't it? Well, folks, an American bison, is definitely NOT a CAPE BUFFALO!

So! By the above paragraphs, you can see the value of marketing in the success of any product, to the public, and Remington's doesn't seem to work, most of the time, outside their smoke, and mirrors "THREE RINGS OF SAFETY" to justify a pushfeed action. The public bought that one!

[ 06-03-2002, 20:00: Message edited by: MacD37 ]

Speaking of comebacks... you can now order a winchester model 70 in 358win... of course it's custom shop, but, heck, they are even scheduling brass runs every year.
If you like the 358, try the sierra 225 gamekings...
jeffe

I agree wholeheartedly with you, Mac...

-- Mats

MacD37,

Yes marketing works but the specifics you gave are not correct but never mind. In general your right.

Stonecreek,

I do see new WSM's for sale on the rack in small shops. I don't have any sales information on them however.

There is so much overlap and always was in cartridge choice but there still is money in introducing new ones. It's fine with me.

OK, here is a thought from the outfield, how about a sabot to allow 30 cal bullets in the 8MM? It wouldn't revive it but it would allow reloading options that would be FUN. Bullet selection has always been an 8MM problem.

If the caliber or case is new or not often used, then I think it really has to offer something for shooters to stray away from what is commonoy available.

For example, if the 8mm Rem had of been an 8mm Ultra, it would have sold enough to geta kick start.

7mm Rem and 300 Win are enough different to have got a kick start even with the ready availability of the 270 and 30/06.

Mike

Talking about the .300 win mags etc. I do not reckon they offer enough performance improvemnt over the 30/06 to warrant getting one (IMHO), if I wanted extra perfromance over the 30/06 I would rather jump a bore size to get it, I would step up to a .338 win mag or .375 H&H.

[ 06-08-2002, 00:47: Message edited by: PC ]

PC,
Talking about the .300 win mags etc. I do not reckon they offer enough performance improvemnt over the 30/06 to warrant getting one (IMHO), if I wanted extra perfromance over the 30/06 I would rather jump a bore size to get it, I would step up to a .338 win mag or .375 H&H.[/QUOTE]

The easy way is to have a 30-06 AI

Mac you are right about it being all about marketing ,but wrong about mm thing, the 7mmRemMag was a homerun,they called the 244 a 6mm and it sold more.So after two successes,when they went for a big magnum with the Remington name on it,it would follow they would call it a Xmm.Too bad the research boys didn't put magnum bullets in it.The STW,STA,30-8mm,and .338-8mm all have a following.

MacD,

On the .244/6mm. It was not the name it was the fact that the .244 came out with a 90 gr bullet and the .243 with a 100 gr bullet and the .243 was perceived as a deer and varmint cartridge and with the 1-12 twist the .244 was dubbed only a varmint round. The shooting press jumped on this. Rem came back with a 1-9 twist and renamed the case. It's really not even the same cartridge due to the twist but close. The name would not matter. Whats wrong with .244 Remington for a name anyway?

280 Rem/7mm Express. Again not the name. It was the overlap of the all dominating 30/06 and the well established .270. Also they downloaded it to function in the 740 and it has no performance edge at all. In fact they did also call it a 7mm/06 for a while also but ran into legal problems with the changes not marketing problems. See Nosler #3.

8mm Rem Mag. Not the name but the lack of variety in bullets and weights. All they had was the Corelokts when the established .338 Win had the wide range. Just overlap. In this case the 8mm Rem name is a little dull but the 7mm Rem mag was hot on it's merits. I don't think there is much demand for hard kickers like these either.

Don

I sit fair to say that big bore calibres have increased in popularity generally or is it the company I am keeping

PC,

It's just with the real enthusiasts. Some of us are bored and even want to try a 45/70. I am not going that far.

Then there is a large African hunting contingent here. I leave their choices to them.

But I am convinced that .35 caliber (maybe it's .338 but I have never used one) and up has a greater effect on game. To many this is a solution to a non problem and to others who hunt where you can see forever at long range the smaller calibers are used by them.

[ 06-08-2002, 19:05: Message edited by: Don Martin29 ]