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One of Us |
A few questions re Barnes bullets and others: 1) What is the difference between the TSX and the TTSX in terms of performance? Starting off, is it better to develop a load with the TTSX rather than the TSX, or even the original X bullet? 2) What is the difference between the 165 gr and 168 gr in 30 caliber? The 168 is a match/ more fragile bullet? 3) What are the monolithic or premium alternatives to Barnes bullets? I have a new 300 WSM in Browning X Bolt and am researching information for load development. Thanks. | ||
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The TTSX was developed to offer more consistent expansion over the TSX. I never had a problem with TSX but 90% of my experience was with 308 caliber and some folks complained about lack of expansion in smaller calibers. I use TTSX over TSX if the bullet for my application is available. I believe the 165 has a shorter ogive and was developed to fit in shorter magazines. AS I recall specifically for the 300WM although I have used them in Mrs Blacktailer's 308 Kimber for that reason. Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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Well put, and hits the nail on the head. As far as performance on game?? I have found no difference. The both just do the job. Remember, forgivness is easier to get than permission. | |||
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| One of Us |
I've used a variety of both the TSX and the TTSX and opt for the TTSX on everything nowadays when using Barnes. I've killed a traincar load of elk (12 or 13) with the 168 TTSX in 30 cal. The TTSX is designed to open at lower velocities but still penetrates all the way through. It enjoys a pretty good BC too so it's actually pretty awesome to me. Zeke | |||
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My comments on your post below: 1) What is the difference between the TSX and the TTSX in terms of performance? I can't directly compare in the same calibres. I use 300 gn TSX in .375 H&H which expands well even on heavy & light game ( Cape Buff, Impala ) and use TTSX ( .30 cal 130 gn, 165 gn, 180 gn ) on small, medium, large medium game. TTSX use encompasses most of my hunting experience with Barnes bullets and these I use on all my serious ( trophy ) hunting. I found on game post impact these bullets drive straight and long, even after complete bone penetration and maybe losing a petal or so. Even after complete bone penetration some bullets have gone right through and exited the animal. TTSX expansion is highly reliable. I believe Blacktailer is correct in that the TTSX offers more reliable expansion that the TSX, at least from what I am told. [b]Starting off, is it better to develop a load with the TTSX rather than the TSX, or even the original X bullet? Personally, if it were me, yes, I would just start load development with the TTSX. My experience is that developing accurate loads is a little less complicated with TTSX compared to some cup & core type bullets. But, Monometel bullets are longer than cup & Core equivalents so if you need a little more case capacity for ideal charge weights the TSX might help you. E.g. .30 cal 180 gn TTSX = 39.95 mm, 180 gn TSX = 35.25 mm. 2) What is the difference between the 165 gr and 168 gr in 30 caliber? The 168 is a match/ more fragile bullet? I can't comment. I have used many .30 cal TTSX 165 gn but never shot the 168 gn. 3) What are the monolithic or premium alternatives to Barnes bullets? Hornady GMX ( have shot some on target only, Barnes TTSX was more accurate for me ), Nosler has something I have never tried and there's bound to be others. One brand I would not try / use is Berger. I have seen some use on game with 7mm and .30 cal and performance I thought lacking. Finally, check Barnes website for the recommended jump to rifling for their bullets. I think this is important for Monometal bullets of any brand. Hunting.... it's not everything, it's the only thing. | |||
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| One of Us |
Thank you for the replies so far. Good information. | |||
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| One of Us |
I have seen inconsistent opening in the TSX with smaller calibers, .338 and down. I have also had bullet blow up with the TTSX at extremes (light bullet, pushed over 3300fps, close shot hitting a big bone). The animal died, and dropped on the spot, so not a failure in the strictest sense. My view is the TSX in sub .338 is at worst a solid, but not reliable at expanding, and if I want a monometal there, I go with the TTSX. They are my go to bullets in .375 and .416. The TTSX is a softer bullet that the TSX, but is often more accurate, and holds together better than non monometal bullets. I use them in .338 and .30, but the larger calibers they tend to be lighter weights than the corresponding TSX bullet. Everything is some form of compromise. To me, monometal bullets offer more depth of penetration at the expense of rapid expansion. I chose based on what I’m hunting, and the conditions I expect to find. | |||
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I believe TTSX expansion is rapid enough even if slower relatively than other bullet types. With TTSX the retained bullet weight after initial expansion is the critical bit for deep penetration and corresponding tissue / organ damage. That is why I believe Barnes suggests that their lighter monometal bullet weights kill as effectively as heavier non-monometal bullets. Not Barnes example, but like a TTSX 165 gn penetrating/ disrupting / killing the same as a 180 gn cup & core. Hunting.... it's not everything, it's the only thing. | |||
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Ditto what Terry said. I shoot the TSX most of the time. It is usually a pass through but leaves a sizeable exit hole. I think nearly any bullet will do the job. I recently shot several animals in Austria using a .308 with 150gr (?) Nosler Ballistic tips. I shot ibex, stag, fallow, mouflon and boar. All died. I was concerned on the boar but he died as well. I think we over think bullets a bit. Nearly all of them will do the job. When a bullet "fails", what exactly does that mean? I recently fired a .300wm 180gr TSX that penetrated a 1" to 1 1/2" branch and still killed the animal. The bullet broke up but pieces of it passed through the lesser kudu (deer sized). I found a gapping entry hole and about 6 exit holes. So, sometimes the bullets come apart, but they still do a lot of damage. On buffalo, I have used solids, TBBC's and TSX's. All killed them. Honestly, the TBBC that did not pass through, was a perfect mushroom. The TSX that did not pass through was a perfect 4 petal expansion. I have one that hit a bone and is lopsided, but the buffalo died. Terry B (above) has done extensive testing and shooting on lots of bullets and loads in many calibers. I listen to him a lot. | |||
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I cant answer to most of your questions but I have recently tried Hammer bullets. If you haven't heard of them, look them up. They make mono hollowpoint bullets with the design intended to have the nose section break into 4 "petals" that drive outward from the bullet doing more damage. The rest of the bullet acts as a solid with a wide meplat that drives the rest of the way through the animal, insuring a pass through in order to help with blood trails. I used them last year for the first time, and certainly plan on using them again. | |||
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Sounds like an exact copy of the CEB bullets. | |||
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Ive only used the 160 gr. TTSX in my 8x57 and 8x60 on game and it really is impressive, get awesome velocity in these two calibers and give me a nice exit hole and good internal damage, Have yet to recover a bullet, even on elk..I recently sent my 8x60 out to get a rechamber to a 8mm/06 Ackley Imp. and intend to use the 160 TTSX at 3000 FPS plus as much more as I can squeeze out of it.. That said I find the Nosler Accubond as reliable as any other bullet Ive used, nice mushrooms, some exits and some not but quick kills are sure..some elk run maybe 25 yards. If I want a bit more penetration, I still use Nosler partitions, they work well enough I see not reason to change in most calibers.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Amen. If a person is hunting in a place which does not prohibit lead in bullets then it is hard to reason why he would choose a monometal bullet. Lead is denser. It is more malleable. It expands in a known way. It has been proven over hundreds of years to make the most effective projectile for a small arm. Jacketed lead bullets are more predictable in their internal and external ballistics. On the other hand, although they certainly work, monometal bullets are more finicky and demanding in terms of achieving good accuracy. They are known for inconsistent expansion. Some are prone to leave heavy copper deposits in the bore. All of these drawbacks have been addressed with more or less success by the manufacturers of monometal bullets and people who hunt in jurisdictions where lead is prohibited are very glad to have them. However, it would seem that, where permitted, one would be more glad to have a good copper jacketed lead bullet. | |||
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Interesting argument, Stonecreak. I am investigating monometal bullets because I fear a bit for the fragility of 165 gr lead bullets, even Accubonds, in 300 WSM velocities. Not only for terminal performance, but also meat damage. I know that I could go up to a 180gr, but I already use a 270 Win and a 338 Win and want a 165 gr bullet that will suit the type of hunting that I do. The downside of Barnes and the like is their high price in SA. Thanks to the others for their inputs too. | |||
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I have barnes bullets marked x only are they different than tsx? most or 270 caliber thanks. | |||
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I find every comment in this post to be inaccurate. Personally, with the quality of mono's today, I find it hard to reason why to use anything but monos. I've shot nothing but monos now for at least the past 20 years. The last non mono's I used were on a caribou / moose hunt in 1998. On that hunt I used Partitions in a 340 Wby. I guess it was the velocity of that load but of the four bullets recovered, they completely disintegrated. The back half separated from the jackets. Yes, since they were recovered, they worked but I like a bit more reliable performance. I find the monos on the market today, especially the TSX and TTSX to be very predictable in internal and external ballistics. I shoot them in numerous calibers from .243 Win all the way up to 500 NE. I've shot them on hard targets like buffalo and hippo and on soft targets like leopard (to include the 300gr TSX in .375). I've never had one not expand as advertised. I've also heard all the "finicky and demanding" comments regarding accuracy. Never experienced that either. Can't say my rifles have any issues with excess copper deposits either, especially with the TSX and TTSX on the market today. YMMV however.  | |||
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Yes, the old X bullet is quite a bit different than the TSX and TTSX on the market today. The TSX and TTSX have relief grooves (canulures) to allow displaced copper to flow into during rifling engraving. I never had issues with the old X bullets not expanding but some seem to have. The TSX and TTSX have made improvements to be more reliable in that regard. The TTSX has a polymer tip for better BC and supposedly to help initiate expansion. | |||
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Yep, lots of benchrest competitions out there being won with monometals. In hunting, monometals do tend to leave "a good blood trail". And a long one. | |||
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| One of Us |
That is not my experience with the TSX and TTSX, though it used to be so when I used the original X back in 1992. The next Generation after the X, the XLC, was also finicky to load. The TTSX and TSX, however, have been very easy to find excellent accuracy with, and, so far, have performed as expected on game. I've loaded the TSX/TTSX in several 243's, a couple 270's, 30-06, 300WSM, 300Win and 300Weatherby. Excellent accuracy, and excellent on game performance. They are pricey, compared to a plain cup-and-core bullet, but they are the cheapest part of the hunt, aren't they? | |||
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Prejudices and misconceptions die hard. Monometals are different, Shot placement needs to be adjusted but they are accurate and extremely consistent. Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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Another piss poor comparison from the paper puncher Stonecreek! How many benchrest shooters are using fragile, match bullets for hunting purposes?  Graybird "Make no mistake, it's not revenge he's after ... it's the reckoning." | |||
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Barnes is great for Africa and just a great bullet for killing stuff. I have stopped using it for shooting whitetails. Often Does not leave any blood trail but results in a dead deer. A dead deer with no blood trail in the swaps at night is a wasted deer. I prefer a cheap federal lead soft point for deer and save by Barnes for Africa. Mike | |||
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I was happily using Hornady Interbonds until shortages here a few years ago forced me to find alternatives. Barnes were unfailingly in good supply so I tried some TTSX in .30 cal initially and found the process of working up accurate handloads was overall quicker than with lead core bullets. Didn't find such a great difference in how they killed game, which they did very well, but pass through shots became pretty standard. Any recovered bullets showed good tip expansion and the solid shank always complete. For me DRT or hit and run shots have stayed about the same. Haven't lost any game. I shoot mostly Stainless barrels and in terms of copper fouling found the Barnes to foul only lightly, if at all. In this respect they have been better than some cup & core types. The few guys here I know who started using monometals, mostly Barnes, tended to stick with using them, like me. In my view some guys here are using pretty light calibres / bullet weights on some pretty hefty animals but are certainly getting results. Accounts of unreal bullet penetration are usual. The only complaint I hear about Barnes relates to cost ! Wish we could buy at prices paid by you lucky USA hunters. Hunting.... it's not everything, it's the only thing. | |||
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