In my opinion, NE 450 No 2's picture is what a recovered bullet should look like. I have recovered NPs in 22, 24, 25, 27, 28, 30 & 33 cals from hogs, deer, nilgai and Elk. I'm a Partition fan b/c they work---close, far, big or small it does not matter.
One of my guest shot a WT doe w/ a 270Win/130BT this past weekend. Yes, she died, but the Bt did not even break a rib it centered on the off side of a perfectly broadside shot. TOO frangible for me.

To give credit where credit is due that is Brads picture I was just quoting him...

I have not recovered very many Partitions, they most often exit..

The ones I have recovered were usually from frontal shots. They look like Brads picture, some times the front lead core is lost or loose, but remaining bullet still has the rear core and the jacket is still expanded.


I have also found Partitions to be very accurate..

AS every one can guess, I am going to agree with reloader. I am driving the 130 BT'S out of my 270 @3200fps+ with no problems. Rae, I also use and have used CoreLoks, but all I can remember have shed their cores. Like I said, I don't care if that happens, if it is bang flop, or close to flop. One of the guys I mentioned earlier, just called, and he just shot a 4X3 Mule Deer in southern Arizona. I asked what cal and what bullet, he said 7X57, with a Hornady 154 Grain Spire Point. 120 yds, he said the old Hornady, "Blew right thru", and darn near bang flop.

BT'S are good, better than what we had 35 years ago, don't sell them short!!

Jerry

Jerry, I will not stop using the Coreloks, but this is the first time I've ever seen this happen. I have seen a great many in the classic mushroom pictured in the Remington ads, but never this. The name Corelok to me means just that. I expect to see some shedding of core but the bulk of the lead should still be attached to the jacket. As far as the bang-flop thing, that is why I shoot for the neck when possible. The bullet must fail miseralby for the deer to not fall in it's tracks. If you want to see something really spectacullar, shoot a deer with a 22-250 @ 3700 fps. w/ 55 gr. expanding bullets in the heart/lung area or in the frontal portion of the neck. Just pray you don't hit a rib or twig or limb.
Getting back to Nosler BTs, I saw a friend of mine shoot at a small muley in southern New Mexico. The shot apparently wasn't too good as evidenced by the bullet hitting the deer in the foot. Apparently the bullet ricocheted off the ground (?) first and hit the front foot just above the hoof. It looked as if someone had taken a drill and drilled a hole and placed the mushroomed copper jacket in the hole with out the lead in it. On another occasion, another friend of mine shot a large sow hog in the front shoulder with a 7mm Rem mag. with a 140 gr. BT. And by his own admission, the bullet blew up with out entering anything and the sow ran off with a bloody shoulder. That happened last summer and he WAS a big B-TIP fan. I am not saying that all Ballistic Tips will fail everytime but I have seen enough of them fail under some really elementary circumstances with minimal resistance and THAT worries me. As far as the Sierra bullets I personally have had 3 holes going in a deer on a broad side shot. And again last week at deer camp a gentleman shot a deer broad side with a 270 Win. and Sierra bullets. The meat damage was extensive on the entrance side as well as the far side which indicates to me that the lead is just a bit too soft. I'm sorry but I do not know all of the details. Hell, he may have shot the deer at 10 yards for all I know.

I tried the BT's on elk (1), red deer (1) and whitetail deer (14). All of the bullets failed to penetrate as deeply as partitions or coreloks. Everything died but the overall performance was not what I wanted. I have switched to Barnes TSX as of late and am impressed so far.

The BT's work wonders on prairie dogs.

Rae:

I wouldn't suggest you stop using coreloks, they work for you and thats great. If you read my earlier post, I mentioned a 270 Win with a 130 Winchester Bulk Bullet, with which I killed an elk. Bang flop, 920 lb 6X6. Pretty close to a corelok. I also talked about shot placement, maybe thats what this discussion is all about, shot placement. Last Sunday, I killed an Arizona Whitetail, with a 270 Winchester, a bit much gun for whitetail, but it was the Model 70's turn. Shot him with a 130 BT @ about 3050fps and at about, get this 60 yds!! I guess its where you hit um becasue the 4" exit was out the ribs, didn't find any bullet and I lost no meat!! Although I had to trim off a few pieces of rib. A couple years ago, I used another 270 on a whitetail a little further 120 yds, bang flop, no meat loss. Same results everytime I use BT's and the 270 Winchester, heck I AM SPOILED!!

Jerry

I'm convinced. I'll not be loading any BTs unless possibly for some varmit shooting.

Going along with the corelok talk, I really like them and have have good success with them also. Adding to that I've have great luck several years back with 130gr, and 150gr Speer Grand Slams from a 270.

Good Post!

quote:

Originally posted by ar corey:
I have given up on .277-.284 bullets that fraction and destroy. My .270 and 7mm Rem. Mag are sold.

In my opinion the solution is increasing the frontal area to a .338 bullet and using a copper Barnes TTSX that stays intact. After this bullet expands the .338 petals punch a nice lethal sized wound channel without exploding and will almost always go right through.

Could not agree more with your approach. Shooting frangible bullets in fast calibers is bound to shatter and lose most of their weight is certainly not the best choice, and I do believe that most of us have a choice.
Velocity is not your friend when it comes to shooting frangible bullets.

A bullet that goes trough the heart with with nicely expanded and intact petals will no doubt cut a better wound channel and the .338 bullet (a wider expanded frontal area) is certainly a wise choice and much better than the smaller calibers where the petals are folded back close to the shank of the bullet within the first 2 inches after contact.

It is not about if a bullet can kill or not; it is about your choice how to kill.

Warrior

It's funny how experiences vary. Some of the worst bullet failures I've experienced were with corelocts. The largest entry wounds I've had were with corelocts as well. I've recovered quite a few CLs, sometimes only fragments were found, sometimes a nice mushroom. That said, I do love them at mild MV in the 30-30win.

Reloader

Quite a discussion we have here. Interesting! I still do not see the difference in a shot to the heart, in or all the way thru, it is fatal and quick. How could you do it better, even if you use a Ballistic Tip?

Jerry

That is the problem - in this instance the bullet fragmented on the near side ribs - never had a chance to get to the heart.

I love the results of my BT's on deer they just drop on the spot. I switched to these because of a corelockt that zipped through at close range and didn't leave a blood trail or stop the deer. We found it 2 weeks later 300 yards up a canyon.

Will be looking for a single bullet that will expand rapidly on impact but continue to penetrate - I'm thinking Barnes will be a starting point but I'm open to suggestions.

quote:

I'm thinking Barnes will be a starting point but I'm open to suggestions.

Barnes from last years elk:



A friends Barnes from last years Mule Deer:



Another friends Barnes from last years antelope:



Another 30 cal/180 Partition from a bull I shot three years ago:

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Eden:
Quite a discussion we have here. Interesting! I still do not see the difference in a shot to the heart, in or all the way thru, it is fatal and quick. How could you do it better, even if you use a Ballistic Tip?

Jerry

Jerry, not trying to be a smartass but, in south Texas there tends to be very thick dense brush. So thick that in many places, only a deer sized animal or smaller can go along the trails. That is why we cut senderos (shooting lanes if you will). If a bullet of any type doesn't make a hole all of the way through on a simple broadside shot and leave a good blood trail, and doesn't do the Bang/Flop thing,you could spend several hours amongst the Rattlesnakes looking for the deer. And may even have to call in a tracker with dogs. They charge $500 minimum. It is my opinion that a broadside shot does not encounter near the mass that a neck shot does on a mature Whitetail buck. And to bring up another question, if the bullet cannot completely penetrate a Whitetail on a broadside shot then what would happen if it were a broadside shot on a mature bull Elk?
I am starting to realize that the Corelok bullets perform optimumly at a lower velocity. Does anyone know Remingtons thoughts as to what the proper velocities for expansion is on Coreloks? It must be pretty slow since all of their ammo I have chronographed is well below their advertised speeds. This is also probably the case with the Nosler BTs. Push them a lot slower and maybe no problems????

quote:

Originally posted by specneeds:
That is the problem - in this instance the bullet fragmented on the near side ribs - never had a chance to get to the heart.

I love the results of my BT's on deer they just drop on the spot. I switched to these because of a corelockt that zipped through at close range and didn't leave a blood trail or stop the deer. We found it 2 weeks later 300 yards up a canyon.

Will be looking for a single bullet that will expand rapidly on impact but continue to penetrate - I'm thinking Barnes will be a starting point but I'm open to suggestions.

Hey Specneeds, I think you are looking for Nosler Partitions or Swift A-Frames. Both are partion designed bullets that will open like a conventional bullet but have the safety margin of the encapsulated lead in the rear for full penetrarion. The Barnes solid copper bullets on occasion will do a 90 degree turn inside the body of game and do some pretty weird things like nearly break off a antler tine. I actually have a picture of this from 3 years ago.

quote:

Originally posted by Brad:
Here's a .308/180 NP from this years elk... 71% weight retention. MV 2,985, hit elk pretty far back and plowed through about three feet of elk and came to rest under the hide forward of the shoulder on the off side. On bigger Big Game, Partitions are my favorite bullet.

Looks picture perfect to me. Classic Nosler PT performance.

JD338

Hornady BTSP from 270 WSM and also from SMLE .303 (my always in jeep rifle)

Last doe shot from the 270 - small entering hole, chunk of heart gone and on the output it shattered right leg bone and opened 3" hole.

She still made it 60 meters jumping over bushes; more I hunt whitetails more amazing these animals seems to be.

Specneeds, I think you'll see there are many opinions on bullets and calibers. I have owned my 7 RM since 1978 and used to use Nosler BT's but not anymore. I have taken game from 30 feet to 400 yds with this rifle. I have used about everything on the market. I use the 140gr or 160 gr Accubonds now depending on the game. The factory seconds are as good as anything at half the price. There is a reason most NBT's aren't made anymore.

in regard to Remington corelokts: I chronographed some factory 7x57 140 gr corelokts. The average was 2600fps. My field experience with them, 5 eastern whitetails from 70 - 200 yds has been excellent.
While I consider myself far from an expert I do feel that velocity is critical with any frangible bullet. Each has a sweet spot, if velocity is either below or above the sweet spot the bullet does not perform as expected.

TerryR, I agree with you on the "sweet spot" for a given bullet, but that could be a problem with a bunch of bullets/cartridge combos. That's why Nosler Partitions out class so many bullets. You have the best of both worlds. Same goes for Swift A-Frames. I've never used the A-Fames, but I do know some people who have and they say they work great.

The Ballistic Tips and Hornady SST bullets are very accurate bullets designed for deer-sized game. They both shoot well and generally perform well on deer. I started using an SST 165 in a .308. I shot a small white-tail doe and the bullet shredded and made a mess of the lungs. The deer was very dead-which was fine-but that bullet came apart much too easily. That little Model 600 308 only pushes them to about 2650 fps! I now shoot regular Hornady spire points in that rifle and it performs perfectly.

Some say that they shoot the BTs because they are so accurate. That is fine, but when shooting heavy animals like elk that you have probably spent a lot of money on to hunt, why shoot something that will not punch through a bone reliably and penetrate without question? It makes no sense to me. I spend too much money hunting elk to bet on anything but premium bullets. I have never had a single one of my 15 elk walk away with a 175 partition from my 7 mag at 2800 fps. I know that I can pull up and shoot and that bullet is going to penetrate to the vitals.

If you are shooting small deer such as the Coues deer, you can use virtually any bullet with good results and there is no comparison to shooting big, heavy, elk. A bullet pushed at a high velocity will behave totally differently than one at a moderate velocity. If a person shoots a moderate-velocity rifle such as a .308, then the premium bullets are not as important. A standard Spire Point, Cor-lock or some other such standard bullet will perform admirably as long as they shoot resonably accurately from the rifle.

I have a friend that shoots Hornady A-max target bullets at deer from a .308. I tell him all the time that he is going to lose one eventually, but much of his shooting is long-range and the velocity is reduced. At reduced velocity and long range, those lightly contructed bullets do very well, but are like grenades at close range. I keep telling him that the standard Spire Points are nearly as accurate, but hold together like they are suppose to, but it falls on deaf ears.

The bottom line is that people are going to shoot whatever they want with or without knowing what game the bullet was designed for. For my money, I am going to shoot a bullet that I believe will adequately penetrate its intended game from ANY angle. I have shot elk from 30 yards to 277 yards and Nolser Partitions have performed admirably. A hunter owes it to the game to shoot a bullet that he is sure is going to penetrate to the vitals no matter what the shot that is presented.

I found it very interesting that on Federal's bullet breakdown, the NBT performed so well. It did very well against elk hide/bone/ballistic gelatin is their test. Not quite as good as the TBT, but much better than the Sierra Gameking. I would have thought it would have performed very similar to the GK.

http://www.federalpremium.com:...es/movie_player.aspx

Thanks for the link to the video, the Ballistic tip performance is typical of what I have experienced for years with 150 gr 7mm at 3,100 FPS. All of the bullet force in the animal, good penetration and normal entry wounds.

Any bullet can fail - I'm planning to shoot this box (purchased at Cabelas) at paper only based on the single failure.

And will try some different bullets - maybe the tipped TBBC on elk next year. I hunt public land and wuld hate to see a mortally wounded bull run that far again and have a confrontation with another hunter who honestly thought he killed it.

quote:

Originally posted by specneeds:

Shot on this bull quatering away at 250 through the rear of the lungs - it was through the crook of a small tree, but don't think and didn't see/hear evidence of early bullet twig contact, but it is possible. two ribs on close side broken entry wound about the size of your palm.

I had the same result with a 120 BT out of my 260Rem. The deer turned away just at the shot and the bullet hit at a shallow angle, busting two ribs and an ENTRY wound the size of my entire hand - like 6"x4" The bullet dumped all its lead and I found the bullet cup under the skin near the brisket.

My theory is for your bullet and mine, it was a combination of hitting the rib on the surface of the deer in combination with shallow angle.
The lack of meat around the bullet when it hit the rib allowed it to expand even more violently than it would have if it had hit the rib dead on while moving into the center of the chest cavity.

I continued to kill deer with this 260Rem load for a few more years, but was careful not to try and break shoulders with it.

quote:

Originally posted by Brad:
Here's a .308/180 NP from this years elk... 71% weight retention. MV 2,985, hit elk pretty far back and plowed through about three feet of elk and came to rest under the hide forward of the shoulder on the off side. On bigger Big Game, Partitions are my favorite bullet.

There is a smart man!

My top choice too.

quote:

There's nothing like the Heart Pounding Adrenaline Rush that comes w/ a close encounter of a Trophy Game Animal

A coyote running into your call is exactly the same and you can do it all year............

I think a 150 grain balistic tip from a 7 mag is a poor choice for elk.
i load 160 grain accubonds for my frend and he is very happy.(same cartridge)
I load 140 grain balistic tips for my 7X57.
I have not taken any game with the load, but I have 2 frends who swear be balistic tips on deer sized game.
One frend shoots 180 grain balistic tips from a 300 win mag and loves them on elk.
I think seafires 2700 FPS is a little slow, I think 2850 is a decent cutoof point for the balistic tips. Since I now own 3 7X57s I expect i will get a chance to try one on game soon.
Nosler has toughend up the balistic tips over the years, But I think it is unwise to expect them to penetrate much when driven to fast.
I would use a 115 in my Roberts, But not in my .257 weatherby...tj3006

I have used 160 Gr Accubonds on elk out of this rifle with lethal results - but not a fair test - I killed a young bull at 60 yards with a neck shot. That same load did not work as well on a smallish Mulie late in the season -zipped though without much damage and a long chase. And the accuracy suffered a little as well. With the BT's I killed an over 900Lb Bull on the run at 300 so I have field experience of the NBT dong well on elk no matter what we read. It helps my confidence a great deal that I have often placed 3 shots with that rifle you could cover with a dime.

Interesting reading all the responses. I think (like most disagreement on here) we'er comparing apples to elphants. There is a difference BT in a 25 cal to a 338, one travelling at 2400 fps than traveling 3400 fps. As well as distance and were you like to hit the animal. I have completely gone away from the heart shots too much bone and chances for things to go wrong. Center mass only take out lungs and liver everytime and from Moose to Whitetail they go no where and die quick. Can't tell you how many deer I recovered 150-250 yards away with there heart in two peices. Anyway for this reason in my 300 WM it just seems to work perfect everytime with BT. The hard bullits seem to go right through and I'm back trying to recover animals. I like the XP3 in my 270 WSM and I may try them in my 300 but I hate to mess if what works. I'm sure there are numerous factors at work here so I'm telling anyone else what to do it just works for me. The 1200 lb moose I took this year I'm sure would agree he only made 20 yards from were I shot him. Good size enterence hole and good size exit very little wasted meat.

If people have had good results with Nosler Ballistic's, then I would go with the Accubond if hunting moose or elk.

Same bullet, better jacket, won't explode as much.

I have had the best results with the Barnes products.

quote:

Originally posted by Brad:

quote:

I'm thinking Barnes will be a starting point but I'm open to suggestions.

Barnes from last years elk:



A friends Barnes from last years Mule Deer:



Another friends Barnes from last years antelope:

Those photo's are of the Barnes TSX.

The TSX is old technology.

The new TTSX has addressed any expansion failure problems with improved tip construction engineered to expand at 2000 fps.




The TTSX is on the left, the TSX is on the right.

Notice how much thicker the walls are on the TSX and could potentially produce a "tumble"

The TTSX being much thinner is going to petal out and expand and not tumble. Barnes chose to make the tip blue instead of the red shown here.

Read this if you are interested in the Barnes TSX, MRX or new TTSX:

http://www.gunsandhunting.com/Extraordinary.html

quote:

Originally posted by ar corey:




Those photo's are of the Barnes TSX.

The TSX is old technology.

The new TTSX has addressed any expansion failure problems with improved tip

That all sounds really good but the bullet in the picture is a 30 cal/150 TTSX that I pulled out of last years elk..

quote:

Originally posted by Brad:

quote:

Originally posted by ar corey:




Those photo's are of the Barnes TSX.

The TSX is old technology.

The new TTSX has addressed any expansion failure problems with improved tip

That all sounds really good but the bullet in the picture is a 30 cal/150 TTSX that I pulled out of last years elk..

Okay, so then its time for more information:

A) What caliber's were used on these 3 pictures posted?
B) What distance were each shots?

Don't tell me it was a 30-06 at 200 yards because I won't believe you.

If you or your buddies were shooting 308's at 600 yards then a Berger VLD isn't going to help the cause either.

Also all 3 of these "failures" killed the animal's.

Nevertheless, shooting the TTSX at reasonable distances of 400-500 yards with a rifle capable of that distance is going to produce excellent results and NOT destroy a shoulder.