We had this discussion at work. I was told that if you can shoot within 1" at 100 yds, you must be able to keep within 6" @ 600 yards.

I disagreed, but could give no reasons why.

If I am correct, why?

quote:

Originally posted by RobinB:
We had this discussion at work. I was told that if you can shoot within 1" at 100 yds, you must be able to keep within 6" @ 600 yards.

I disagreed, but could give no reasons why.

If I am correct, why?

Not sure why you disagreed. Did you think the group @ 600 would be larger than 6" or smaller?

You are Right & Wrong..... mostly Wrong.

Wrong: The theory is that if you and your rifle/cartridge combo are capable of MOA @ 100 yards (approx 1" groups), then that level of accruacy should continue "forever"..... 2" @ 200 yds, 4"@ 400yds, 6"@600yds, ....10" @ 1000 yds.

Right: When shooters start looking at targets @ 600 yds..... most can barely keep the crosshairs on the general target much less the bullseye!!

Very few shooters/riflemen ever shoot at measured distances beyond 200 yds.... that is why a lot of game is completely "missed" beyond 250 yds, regardless of the cartridges ballistics!!

I lean towards "wrong."

Ever bowhunt? Ever seen an arrow in slow-mo immediately after release?

It takes some time before the arrow is actually stabilized in flight. That is a reason why sometimes you will actually get better penetration from any given arrow at some longer distances that right off the riser so to speak.

I've had arrows leave my bow at close to 300fps, and with all of that KE, you'd think it would pass right through a deer, especially if close. But in fact, this "unstable" arrow may not penetrate as far as one that is stable.

To relate this to bullets and bullet flight.... (I've never personally experienced this but I've read about it and have heard it many times over from some long range shooters/high power competitors).

It has been said that bullets may group larger than an inch at 100 and do better at 200 because it took some given distance for that particular bullet to stabilize while in flight, and it happened to be beyond the 100 yard mark.

Some very odd things occur while shooting bullets. Most of my rifles that have nice groups at 100 tend to spread slightly the further the distance. However, I have 2 with a couple of loads that group 1" at 100, and 200, and sometimes out to 265. Since I'm not a ballistics genius like many here, I just shrug my shoulders and smile knowing that if I have an animal I wish to kill, it will be quite dead after I pull the trigger out to 350 yards or so.

But to say what you said, is not really true. It would be nice if it was but I do not agree with it.

You are right. and there are lots of reasons why. In the perfect world and in theroy a rifle that will shot 1" groups at 100 yds. should shot 6" groups at 600 yards. The cone of dispersion says it should. NOT in reality. Below are a few of reason why not.

1. The conditions you are shooting will probably keep that from happening, period the end. UNLESS you are expert at reading small changes in wind conditions.

2. Ability to break shot after shot with the exact same sight picture, hold old the rifle the exact same way so that it recoils the sam every time, check weld, etc.

3. Quality of the ammo being used. It takes very consistenty match quality ammo to do that.

4. Harmonics of the barrel. I have seen match quality loads in well built match rifles that some loads superb -.5 MOA at 100 yards that would not consistently hold 1 MOA at 600 yards.

And the list could go on and on. No one knows what a load that shoots great at 100 yards is going to do at 600 untill you have tried, and even then, if it won't repeat it numerous times it could have been a fluke. I shoot long range matches and I NEVER trust a load to perform at long range untill it has reapted it's self numerous times. Trust me you are right.

PaPa 260

The therory is if you shoot 1" at 100 yards then you will shott 2" at 200 and 3" at 300 etc. But this doesnot always play out in the real world.Shoot enough and you will find some great groups at 100 yards open way up at longer ranges and some acctualy tighten up at longer ranges.Such as they may shoot 3/4 MOA at 100 but shoot 1/2 moa at longer range...

That is why I test my accuracy at 300 hundred yard and not 100 yards

Here are a couple of 300 Yard groups

quote:

Originally posted by RobinB:
We had this discussion at work. I was told that if you can shoot within 1" at 100 yds, you must be able to keep within 6" @ 600 yards.

I disagreed, but could give no reasons why.

If I am correct, why?

You are correct!!

IF you were shooting in a vacuum, or in a 600-yard dark tunnel in which a constant temperature was maintained from the bench all the way to the targets, and only the targets were illuminated, perhaps! But if you have mirage and variable winds at different distances downrange, well, it is MUCH easier to shoot a 1" group at 100 yards than to shoot a 6" group at 600 .......... There are just too many factors at work at greater distances in addition to the precision of your shooting system and your natural marksmanship ability!

I was also pondering this question and the first thing that came to mind was wind drift. As the bullet slows down more and more past the 100 yard mark, won't the wind have much more affect on the flight path? I don't think it would matter in theoretical 600 yard vacuum tube mentioned, but in the real world the wind is almost never constant. IMO, you are correct. Alot of people can shoot 1"/100 yard groups. Now how many can ,as consistently, shoot 6"/600 yard groups?

Wind drift has more affect on the bullet closer to the muzzle. You want to start the bullet on the right line.

Ok, I feel like a moron. I was busy eating deer jerky when I first read you post. I thought YOU were the one that said 1" at 100 yards = 6" at 600.

I reread your post and now see that you DISagreed with that. My humble apology. In my first post, you'll see that I agreed with what your thoughts were. But I did not read thoroughly, and said you were wrong.

Sorry.

You are right. Very few will shoot MOA at 600 if they shoot MOA at 100(I'm talking rifles and Shooters).

I can't tell you how many rifles I've shot at 100 yards that were sub MOA but, at 200+ they were over MOA and it wasn't the shooter(me ) as I know my ability.

Conditions is probably the main thing but, there are definitely other variables.

Good Luck

Reloader

Usually it was over 600 yards, but our range had a habit of some flags showing just the opposite wind in different areas, let alone different velosities. Usually when I missed the bull i could look up and see the wind change I'd missed just before fireing.

And long range targets usually have an increase in size over and above the closer targets Minutes of Angle bullseye size.

I think I read recently on AR that someone suggested that as a "top goes to sleep" a few moments after its initial turns, so also a spinning bullet will "calm down" (?)

Maybe that would explain, in part?, why some rifle's groups improve at 2 or 300 yards?

Anyone else heard this theory?

friar

Maybe I missed it in the above discussion but at some bullets become unstable after a certain range and groups open WAY up. I've had cases where I'd get 1 inch groups at 50 yards and 5 or 6 inch groups at 100 yards.

As for a bullet being more accurate at longer ranges than at shorter ones, there is no law of physics that would support that happening. I would hypothesize that if one shot with a machine rest, one would NEVER get as small groups, on the average, at 200 yards as one got at 100 yards.

Yes, I've heard that theory and believe it especially regarding small caliber heavy bullets. I have not experienced it.

Hello,
As always, each of us have our own bank of knowledge/info/experience with various bullet issues, but for the best data I have needed in the past, it was found via a phone call to Sierra. In about a month from now, several hundred shooters of all skill levels will be at Camp Perry, Oh. for the National Matches and would judge over 2/3rds will be using Sierra bullets. Just a suggestion for they are always quite helpfull.

The second re-barrel on my 7mm Weatherby would shoot about 1.75-inch groups at 100 yards and about 2.25-inch groups at 200 yards.

quote:

QUOTE]

IF you were shooting in a vacuum, or in a 600-yard dark tunnel in which a constant temperature was maintained from the bench all the way to the targets, and only the targets were illuminated, perhaps! But if you have mirage and variable winds at different distances downrange, well, it is MUCH easier to shoot a 1" group at 100 yards than to shoot a 6" group at 600 .......... There are just too many factors at work at greater distances in addition to the precision of your shooting system and your natural marksmanship ability!

[/QUOTE]

El Deguello is right on. Have shot both full distance NRA competition (out to 1000 yds) as well as the reduced courses shot at both 100 and 200 yards, and it is much easier to obtain moa groups at the shorter ranges.

Not only is the rifle/ammo a factor, but the prevailing conditions bear heavily on the shooter's ability to maintain a small group.

I have seen range flags indicating 3 different directions and velocities at the same time across a 1000 yard range. As has previously been stated, the wind has more affect on the bullet nearest the muzzle, but the downrange wind does change your POI as well.

Another factor which has not been mentioned at long range is velocity. If your bullet slows down sufficiently to go sub-sonic, it is subjected to some buffeting, which also opens your group.

I think there is some validity to the "going to sleep" theory as it might apply to bullets. My pet load for 600 yard and beyond was a 190 gr. Sierra Match King in my 30-06 target rifle.

The best group(s) I ever fired with this rifle/load at 100 yards measured between 1-1.3 moa. This was from prone position, shooting NRA XTC matches which allow only iron sights, no artificial rests.

The following picture is a 3" spotter which was placed in my first shot @ 600 yards (same rifle, same load), showing 14 subsequent shots; the 14th shot hit the wooden spindle, blowing a 5-6" hole in the target. The group on the spotter measured 2.61".



Lest there be any misunderstanding; the aiming black on a 600 yd. target is 36" diameter and the shooter is unable to see a 3" spotter with the naked eye at that distance. The 36" bull remained the aiming point for the entire 15 shots. The spotter is moved to each successive shot as the string progresses, so the 2.61" is not the same as a 2.61" group on a target, but gives you a pretty good idea as to the accuracy of the rifle/load combination. Would have loved to measure the actual group, but, as previously stated, the target was destroyed by the 15th shot so this was not possible. I feel sure, however, it would have been much less than 1 moa which would suggest this load tends to go to sleep somewhere beyond 100 yds.

By the way, conditions that day were about as good as it gets; very little mirage and constant wind and light conditions.

Regards,
hm

I've seen a few instances of groups tightening at longer ranges. One rifle of mine in particular, a M70 in 22-250 has alway shot tighter groups at 200 yards than at 100 with any load I have tried using Sierra 52 grain match bullets.

GREAT SHOOTING hm 1996. I know what the hm stands for and with shooting like that no doubt you are. I love to pop spindles at long range.

Good Shooting........PaPa 260

Couldn't agree more with Papa 260 about hm 1996.

Some readers may not realise that to hit the peg means you've gone in the same hole as the previous shot.

Hey, ask a big bore match shooter about MOA shooting at 500 or 600 yards, and then look at how big that bullseye is! A six inch group might be possible, but most M-1 and M-14 shooters are looking at 12 inch groups, and that at a stage where every round has to be a 10 if you expect to place in serious competition. Cannot speak for a minigun (.223) competitor, cause I stopped competing while the M-14/M-1A still ruled the range.

LLS

Now you know why NRA makes a long range classification 600yds and beyond. A lot of people can shoot at 100-200yds but when it comes to reading the wind they are lost at long range. If you want to improve your wind reading shoot smallbore at 100yds.Also because the bullet is only traveling at 1080fps or less it teaches you to follow through on your hold.

Consider a string of shots at an average of 2800fps with a 50fps ES.

At 100 yards the vertical spread due to differing time of flight will be less than 0.1 MOA.

At 600 yards it will be over 0.5 MOA and at 1000 yards it will be over 1.5 MOA.

quote:

Buliwyf: Wind drift has more affect on the bullet closer to the muzzle. You want to start the bullet on the right line.

Think of the difference between line of sight and bullet path as an angle; a very slight wind deflection near the muzzle is multiplied as the bullet travels downrange. To give an idea as to how little the bullet must be pushed off course near the muzzle, movement of the rear sight on a target rifle a mere .008" will move the POI approximately 1" @ 100 yds. and 6" @ 600 yards (depending upon the sight radius).

The X ring on the 600 yd target is 6" and 10 ring is 12", making good wind doping all the more important.

quote:

Papa 260: I love to pop spindles at long range.

The pit crew isn't overjoyed, though. This one cost me several points, as conditions changed while target repairs were being made. (Not to mention building tension. )

quote:

Doc Highwall: If you want to improve your wind reading shoot smallbore at 100yds. Also because the bullet is only traveling at 1080fps or less it teaches you to follow through on your hold.

Absolutely! 100 yard smallbore will improve your longrange highpower scores tremendously! Never appreciated followthrough until I took up smallbore w/a mod. 52. Smallbore also allows you to catch the small mistakes your are making that have been masked by the recoil of the highpower.

Regards,
hm

quote:

Originally posted by hm1996:

quote:

QUOTE]

IF you were shooting in a vacuum, or in a 600-yard dark tunnel in which a constant temperature was maintained from the bench all the way to the targets, and only the targets were illuminated, perhaps! But if you have mirage and variable winds at different distances downrange, well, it is MUCH easier to shoot a 1" group at 100 yards than to shoot a 6" group at 600 .......... There are just too many factors at work at greater distances in addition to the precision of your shooting system and your natural marksmanship ability!

El Deguello is right on. Have shot both full distance NRA competition (out to 1000 yds) as well as the reduced courses shot at both 100 and 200 yards, and it is much easier to obtain moa groups at the shorter ranges.

Not only is the rifle/ammo a factor, but the prevailing conditions bear heavily on the shooter's ability to maintain a small group.

I have seen range flags indicating 3 different directions and velocities at the same time across a 1000 yard range. As has previously been stated, the wind has more affect on the bullet nearest the muzzle, but the downrange wind does change your POI as well.

Another factor which has not been mentioned at long range is velocity. If your bullet slows down sufficiently to go sub-sonic, it is subjected to some buffeting, which also opens your group.

I think there is some validity to the "going to sleep" theory as it might apply to bullets. My pet load for 600 yard and beyond was a 190 gr. Sierra Match King in my 30-06 target rifle.

The best group(s) I ever fired with this rifle/load at 100 yards measured between 1-1.3 moa. This was from prone position, shooting NRA XTC matches which allow only iron sights, no artificial rests.

The following picture is a 3" spotter which was placed in my first shot @ 600 yards (same rifle, same load), showing 14 subsequent shots; the 14th shot hit the wooden spindle, blowing a 5-6" hole in the target. The group on the spotter measured 2.61".



Lest there be any misunderstanding; the aiming black on a 600 yd. target is 36" diameter and the shooter is unable to see a 3" spotter with the naked eye at that distance. The 36" bull remained the aiming point for the entire 15 shots. The spotter is moved to each successive shot as the string progresses, so the 2.61" is not the same as a 2.61" group on a target, but gives you a pretty good idea as to the accuracy of the rifle/load combination. Would have loved to measure the actual group, but, as previously stated, the target was destroyed by the 15th shot so this was not possible. I feel sure, however, it would have been much less than 1 moa which would suggest this load tends to go to sleep somewhere beyond 100 yds.

By the way, conditions that day were about as good as it gets; very little mirage and constant wind and light conditions.

Regards,
hm[/QUOTE]

Now that's amazing shooting for iron sights. I shoot some mid range matches myself, and it's always neat to see someone hit the spotter, but hitting the spindle, that's awesome, I want to see that sometime!

I cant even see that far here in Southern Mo.

quote:

Originally posted by Tyler Kemp:
Now that's amazing shooting for iron sights. I shoot some mid range matches myself, and it's always neat to see someone hit the spotter, but hitting the spindle, that's awesome, I want to see that sometime!

C'mon Tyler, if you've been shooting Hi-Power very much, you already know that iron sights aren't much of a handicap. Some of us even prefer them to scopes for long range work on fixed, standardized, targets. (At least if we are shooting with good quality aperture sights front and rear. I used Aussie Central rear sights and German Anschutz front.)

Much of it depends on how you learned to shoot. Some people started with scopes, and for them "hold off" is their standard method of allowing for wind/mirage. Others were raised on "clicking the sight", and they seldom or never hold off...they just move the sight instead. To do either, you have to learn to read the wind, but you have to REALLY learn to read wind to use the irons and click between shots effectively. Once you've learned, though you can do some things that on the surface look amazing. Once shooting in a dense fog at 900 meters, I completely removed the front aperture and just used the round housing it sits in as a front sight. Still shot a very decent score by centering the target frame in that.

But, it can be done, and is huge fun once you get good at it. When I used to shoot highpower competitively, at the end of the first few days of the Nationals, I'd usually be in about 100th-110th place overall (through the short and mid-ranges). But, because I spent a lot of time and practice learning to read wind flags and other wind indicators at long ranges, by the end of the next few days (long ranges), over my last 5 Nationals I'd be anywhere between 5th and 43rd in the Grand Agg.(Against 600 or so competitors.)

One of the most fun matches I ever had was one day at 800 yards, where the wind was changing an average of about 5 MOA between each shot. Shoot a bull, put on 5 minutes of wind and shoot another bull. then take off 3 minutes, shoot another bull, take off another 3 and shoot one again...then add 7 minutes and shoot yet another. That's being in the groove and loving life!!

Some people try to use too small apertures and it makes things more difficult for them. Experimentation and a good "dope" book developed over time take a lot of the trouble out of that. A guy "knows" in his book which size aperture to use at which distance and in what light, for his best scores with HIS eyes.

Damn, I loved that sport!!

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
Shoot a bull, put on 5 minutes of wind and shoot another bull. then take off 3 minutes, shoot another bull, take off another 3 and shoot one again...then add 7 minutes and shoot yet another.

Good on ya AC. The people who wait for the same conditions each shot don't impress me at all.
Including that Hathaway fella that "won" a match by doing just that. Near as damit to cheating in MHO. The self satisfaction off winding on or off a handfull of minutes and still getting a bull beats all.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
[QUOTE]

C'mon Tyler, if you've been shooting Hi-Power very much, you already know that iron sights aren't much of a handicap. Some of us even prefer them to scopes for long range work on fixed, standardized, targets.

Right ! All you have to do is align the three blurs till you've eliminated most of the fringe light; Then let er rip. Tyler with your young eyes you should have no problem with open sights. Later you can go to scout scope mounting.No blurs there. roger

You're correct. Why? Who knows.

Serious BR competitors shoot matches at both 100 and 200 yards with the same rifle. But few of them shoot the same load at both distances, one load does better at the short range, another at the long one. Happens that way with hunting rifles too.

Lots of guesses why but I don't think anyone really knows.

I know I shoot better with a scope than aperture sights. I'd much rather shoot a scope as well, holding off for windage is much quicker for me than dialing in an adjustment, as I'm not that accomplished in wind reading.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim C. <><:
You're correct. Why? Who knows.

Serious BR competitors shoot matches at both 100 and 200 yards with the same rifle. But few of them shoot the same load at both distances, one load does better at the short range, another at the long one. Happens that way with hunting rifles too.

Lots of guesses why but I don't think anyone really knows.

Jim, I think YOU are exactly correct, too. The saving grace is that if we keep a good "dope book", we can know WHAT works, even if we don'r know fer-sure why. But of course that means we have to put in the work to try all those things that MIGHT work, and keep good, accurate, notes on each experiment/experience too.

Even skilled shooting involves keeping up with one's paperwork.

Glad to see some Highpower shooters speaking up. I believe variances in velocity especially over 600 yards will open groups.

BTW I love shooting irons but my best Perry memory was a good score I shot in the Wimbledon.

And Tyler with those young eyes do not tell me you can not see that spotter at 600 yards.

With my 7mm Mag my rounds stay within 3" at 600yds. Thats off a bench also.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc Highwall:
Now you know why NRA makes a long range classification 600yds and beyond. A lot of people can shoot at 100-200yds but when it comes to reading the wind they are lost at long range. If you want to improve your wind reading shoot smallbore at 100yds.Also because the bullet is only traveling at 1080fps or less it teaches you to follow through on your hold.

Right on Doc. If one has the tenacity to drive .22 RF bullets at 50 and 100 yards in competition, one will learn how to "dope" wind. A person will also learn how to "favor". If one is a masochist, one can shoot an air rifle.