Thought I'd start a new thread, following Canuck's pics of his pakcing dog.

I'm still suffering from post-hard-disk-blow-up-with-no-back-up blues, so no high country pics for now. But soon dammit, only three months from sheep season!

But I digress

Talking about pack animals, a friend of mine suggested a string of goats. Not the dinky kind, but full-size big strong goats. Eat everything, can carry a lot. Might be more convenient than horses, because they can follow you pretty much anywhere...

Anybody done that?

Frans

What a bunch of B.S. if you cant manage a string of horses and a few good mules, keep your ass at home because it aint that hard.Goats I couldnt wait to see the wild ones run threw your camp and send them forever.Last year we took a string in to one of our local alpine lakes Mt. Goats brought their babies right in to our camp panicked about a dozen head of horses on a picket line they were about to break loose and my BC and I got between them and black cowdog sent goats on their way w/respect

Frans,

Before I moved here. to Alaska, I had pack goats.....I had the "dinky" kind as I could load up a couple in the back of the jeep or in the skiff.....they worked fine.....since my legs aren't what they used to be, I've been thinking about a couple more.....even "dinky" ones can carry a lightweight camp for you and, if trained properly, follow along like a dog.....a friend of mine here has some large ones that he uses getting his gear into the backcountry on his sheep hunts.....they work well.....do a Google for packgoats and you'll find much info.

Joe

Well Frans, even with a hundred goats, you still gotta walk. Personally, I hate goats with a passion and would soon find an excuse to turn them into bear bait. If I didn't, I'm sure the first group of riders we met would do just that, after they picked themselves off the ground. I've seen guys packing with Llamas and just shake my head. A llama can only pack about 1/3 of what a horse can, so you need more of them and every extra head of livestock, no matter what species, is a lot more work and worry.
Grizz

Frans a year of more ago I started a thread about llamas in the horse forum. I've never used llamas but from what I've gathered from people who actually use them- they are great for alpine use. I talked extensuvely with a breeder from HIgh River and I've included some of his thoughts.

The rangers like them more because their hooves tear up the ground a little less. They are browsers rather than grazers and can eat what's available. So you don't have to haul in very much feed for them. About a pound a day.

They do carry much less than a horse and you have to still walk. You'll never get thrown from one or kicked. They are more sure footed than horses so you can actually get them into areas that a horse couldn't go. Good idea for sheep hunting . They don't panic as easily as horses-good in bear country. You don't have to brush them down every night.

Horse riders hate them because they spook horses to no end. My buddy had some on his land and had to get rid of them because the horses went nuts every time they saw them. They can be kept on smaller parcels of land than horses. They will fit into a smaller trailer. They are cheap-150 bucks each. They need to be excercised before hitting the mountains for a hard hike.

I think if a fellow was hitting the mountains every couple of weekends and got them used to it and in good physical shape they would be good. I don't think they could be brought out twice a year and expected to do a good job.

Frans:

My daughter is working with llamas as her 4-H project, and when we first brought them onto the place my two Morgan mares just looked at them, said "oh, llamas . . . ho hum" and went back to eating. I guess you just need a decent horse.

As to personality, I prefer horses as they are easier to train and friendlier, but the llamas are very easy to keep. My daughter is working on the pack training, so we will see.

Dave

Frans,
One thing to keep in mind. Check with your local Fish and Wildlife biologists about pack goats transmitting disease to wild sheep. It has been a problem in Hells Canyon with bighorns.

The only thing llamas are good for is bear bait. I had a guy try to sell me a bunch of llamas for pack animals. As I recall he was from northern California....big shock there huh! Seeing as you can't ride them........ not a good thing......I asked him how much they can pack. Turns out I would need a small herd of llamas to pack out one moose in small chunks.

You guys can have your goats and llamas. I will stick to a good percheron cross thank you very much.

Why is it that so many llama owners also have Arabians?!

I had a course at the Calgary Hyatt a few weeks ago, in a room on the +15 level. Around the escalators, the decorators have hung some brown/white photographs from around 1926, features some of our native friends, some clearly polished up and dressed for the ocassion, others more authentic (looking).

I liked one picture in particular, it is of an indian hunter with two dogs, each of which had a small package strapped to its back with a piece of thick rope. He didn't carry much, our indian friend, just a bow and some arrows, a knife, a skin to keep him warm, and whatever fit onto the back of his two canine friends.

Farns

What about one of those Shetland pony high mules?

Can someone tell me if you have a mule for mountain trecking and hunting how much grain does it need daily for good health ?

That depends on how hard you are working the mule, the load size, the size of your mule, temperatures etc.............and it depends on how you have been feeding your mule all along, you can't just start pouring grain to your mule when you go hunting.

Animals that are routinely worked hard and that are receiving grain as a part of their regular diet can handle more grain......the amount is built up slowly.

Grain is a good supplement but it is only a supplement to their need for good pasture or good quality hay. Although we use it, grain is not a natural horse feed, grass is.

Make sure you know what you are doing......you can permanently cripple you animal with kindness.

Not trying to be patronizing.......obviously I do not know how much experience you have with horses and mules.

Skyline I have no experience with horses or mules ! I need to get all the info I can about caring for them before I invest in 2 mules for riding and sporting in mountain areas , I have appointment with an Amish gentleman this Saturday for lessone on how to feed and care for his mules and horses , I'm selling my property and moving west soon and I have looked at some fine animals in MO. on the net I won't get anything untill I know how to care lovingly for them . we have chickens,ducks,geese that we hatched out of the egg , we love animals , I do not hunt ! don't have the heart for it ! concho

we used burros to carry two each of our backpacks a couple of time in the Gila, NM- we walked - worked great!!

Get ready Concho...there is a LOT involved in purchasing a mule or horse.

To pack successfully in the hills, you're going to need a PILE of tack (halters, bridals, saddles, pack saddles, panniers, pack covers, ropes, pads, hobbles, shoeing kit, etc), a horse trailer to haul them in the hills, a pickup with enough to get the trailer and horses into the hills, then for the 11 months you don't use the ponies you're going to need a place to keep them. That entails feed, grooming, vaccinations, shoeing, trips to the vet, etc....

Ponies are a lot of fun, but expect to spend a LOT of $$$. Not what I would call a cost efficient way to travel, but there is no better way to go through the woods.

Oh, and make sure before you buy anything, you actually RIDE the darn thing (don't take anyone's word as to how broke one may or maynot be) and in the contract make sure you put a 30 day return guarantee if he/she doesn't work out.

MG

Thanks Mad goat , NM is where I'm heading, but it will take a couple years to get everything ready for the move That's why I'm learning now what I will need and getting schooling before I do something stupid .

Amish folks moved into the "heighborhood" about 3 years ago. I wouldn't put too much stock in Amish horsemanship. I wouldn't put any stock in it without spending a day or two with him. Out of 24 families there's one man that knows how to deal with horses in a reliable way.

Almost every Amish broke saddle horse I've ever seen is an accident waiting to happen.

If you go with horses or mules, then plan to spend time working with them. If its gonna be one month a year then I'd plan on finding somebody reputable and rent the horses for your hunting, or pay for a drop camp.

Concho, you said you'll be moving to New Mexico in a couple of years.

If you're gonna buy mules or horses, I suggest you learn now, as much as possible... BUT, wait until you get settled in New Mexico to buy your horses/mules.

Just guessing you might find better stock there, suited to the country, than back East.

Just my opinion.

L.W.

Six ilegal immigrants....once unloaded call the Boarder Patrol.

Leanwolff I bought a Heflinger mare and my new Amish friends are breeding her to a beautiful stud jack this spring I have made arrangements for having the Amish train me and the new colt on their hundreds of acres, Mare and colt will have a private area some 20+acres and building for cover for them both .

Follow Leanwolff's advice and buy your stock in New Mexico. Taking horses to high elevation for a hunt can be bad news. I've come across people with colicing horses 20 miles from the trailhead. Whereas horses bred, born, and used at high elevation just do better.

ColoCowboy As I have already bought a Mare and she will be bred this Spring, your advice I appreciate ! but wheels are turning now ! where I live it is 700 + above Sea level the area I'm looking at to move to is 1,000 +, Thanks

concho

The mare and the foal will have to time to acclimate to New Mexico elevation. I live at 7700 ft. and pasture cows in the summer to 10,000. I killed a bull this fall at 11,400. I try to buy any new stock locally.

Have fun with you new purchase and her foal in the spring of '08.

Back to the original thread.

Each of the animals mentioned, goats, llamas, burros, mules, and horses have their pros and cons for hunting. It is always interesting to see how some users despise those who make another choice. Each animal fits a certain type of hunting style. Some resent others who hunt differently.
For packing moose, or simply moving tonnage, nothing beats a good horse or mule. (A bad horse or mule isn't even good for moving tonnage.) Goats are a very effective way to penetrate rugged country, with a spartan camp. Low impact, sheep hunting is a prime example. In my expereince goats hate the rain and bad weather, but otherwise can really assist the lone hunter. If several people are hunting together, it means having an awful lot of goats to bring in the gear necessary. Still they are cheap and easy to transport, so even this isn't a huge disadvantage.
Llamas are somewhere in the middle. Two llamas per hunter can carry a pretty decent camp and move a lot of meat, but we are not talking wall tents and woodstoves. Think deluxe backback camp that you don't have to pack yourself. Again, for sheep or deer hunting, the llamas can easily pack out the meat and trophies. When you start talking elk size animals, you need at three llamas for a good sized bull. And yes, you are still walking. (Some of us consider that (walking) a good thing, others want to ride their animal (horse)).

It really depends upon the style of hunting you like. Some want all the comforts of home, and like the nostalgia of a horse camp. There is definitely more work involved in this type of camp. For some the camp is as important as the hunt. Goats are the other extreme with relatively little work, and generally a spartan camp. They will allow the lone hunter (or physically challenged hunter) to really get into some rough country.
To each his own...

Bill