Kingfisher, your velocity will probably be better but I would sure not worry if is a little lower then you expect. That thing will thump anything you shoot at. Work for accuracy first. Never worry about speed. Have fun and keep us posted as to how it shoots.

Thanks for the tip JRO. I'm still trying to get my hands on some. I've put the 500 on the back burner with hunting season here. I wont put it off long because I want to get it figured out, I've just been too busy loading for rifles, and friends rifles and so on.

For God's sake, put some powder in the pig til it sticks!
With my 4" version I use up to 46 gr of 296 for 1560 fps.,with the Hornady 350 gr. HP, so you can guess what your long barrel will do. I would guess 1750 fps.

Remember, the big cast bullets, like the 440 grain will go quite a bit faster. That bullet is maybe only 80 fps slower than the 350 jacketed Hornady. If you need the expansion, then the jacketed is great, but if you don't the cast is my choice. The Hornady 500 grain soft point expands a lot and should still have some penetration. They do kick a lot though. Accuracy wise, I have had the best luck with 296 and cast bullets.

Please post your loads and chronograph results for us. It hurts less when you are shooting!

JRO, might have some help for you there! My 45-70 cast boolit, 317 grs. is right on at 100, drops 4" at 150 and 16" at 200. I get 1535 fps. Fantastic fun to shoot long range!

Kingfisher, a half dozen times on your brass is nothing. I have brass that has been loaded 40 times. You might check the diameter of your expander to see if it is too big. Tighter bullet pull will only increase velocity a small amount as will a tight crimp. Tighter bullet pull WILL make your gun more accurate.
I agree with one of the guys that says to try 296.

bfrshooter, there is no "expander" like you would find on rifle dies. I wish it were that simple. I don't even flare the mouth on them anymore. They go straight from the resizing die to the seater. As far as powders go, I'll try 296, but 296 is the same as H-110, which (per Hodgdon) has only slightly better performance than H-4227 and it's not as quick as Lil'Gun as far as velocities go. The point is, before I sent it in atleast I was in the mid 1700 fps. range. Now with a max load of Lil'Gun I can't even get out of the 1500's??? Switching to 296, or anything else for that matter isn't going to get it. Not 200 fps. anyway.



I DO believe that brass is part of the problem, I think that even though S&W fixed the cylinder gap, the brass has now hardened to a point where it's just not holding on to the brass tight enough. The bullets seat noticeably easier than they have in the past.



Anyway, I apologize for being a naysayer and I continue to appreciate any feedback on the situation. I don't want anyone to mistake my tone as that of a "know it all", it's just one of those "been there done that" situations.

Well, I'll say this. Before I sent it to S&W I was getting in the 1700's with Lil'Gun, and in the 1500's with H-4227. From everyone I've talked to, those velocities are/were slow. Now that the gun has returned from S&W the Lil'Gun velocities are even slower. Yes, the Lil'Gun is a different batch. It's not the chronograph. The chrono is an Oehler 35P and while it's not infallible it hasn't given any erroneous data for anything else that I've fired over it, so I believe that the data it's giving is honest. One way or another we'll know this weekend. I'm going back to the range with loads using Lil'Gun, H-4227, and H-110. All of them are fairly close together in respect to Hodgdon's data so if one of the powders is bad, like I got a bad canister of Lil'Gun, it should show up as slower than the rest. However if they all shoot slow, then I know it's something else.

On a side note. I wasn't sure if you other 500 S&W owners out there were aware of this, but the SAAMI spec for the 500 S&W was apparently changed from 50,000 PSI to 60,000 PSI. All of the Hodgdon data was made to be right at or under the 50,000 PSI limit. That being the case, it's possible that their data could be considered a tad on the weak side. I emailed them this evening to see if they were possibly going to do a retest. Although it's doubtful they will.

The quest goes on.

Regards,
Tom

I found this today.
PRODUCT DESCRIPTION: LIL' GUN� SMOKELESS POWDER � 1 LB. CONTAINER, LOT NUMBER: 103080221

WARNING: Hodgdon Powder Company, Inc. has determined that a small number of one pound (1 lb.) containers of Hodgdon�s LIL' GUN smokeless powder may create excessive pressures in firearms when loaded in cartridges and/or shotshells using standard loading data. Such a condition, if present, may cause personal injury to the user and/or bystander and damage to the firearm. Users should immediately cease using this product and return it to Hodgdon Powder Co. as instructed below:

RETURN OF PRODUCT AND REPLACEMENT:
All persons in possession of Lot #103080221 of Hodgdon�s LIL� GUN � 1 lb. containers of smokeless powder should immediately call 1-800-622-4366 (toll free) for instructions from Hodgdon�s Customer Service Dept. as to the return of this product.

Hodgdon will send you a D.O.T. approved return shipping carton at no cost to you for use in returning the product. We will also send you a replacement product at no charge.

You may find the lot number on the sticker on the bottom of the powder bottle.

Nope, not my lot. Either one.

I just went to all the powder sites and can't find any loads over 50,600. If I were you, I would very gradually up your loads watching for pressure signs. Be very careful because many times handguns will not show any. Sticky cases can occur but sometimes they dont. Same with flat primers. Watch 4227 VERY carefully, pressure can jump extremely fast and it is heat sensitive also.
I don't think there is anything about your gun that is keeping velocity low unless the bore is oversize or the throats are smaller then the bore. These are the only two things that will slow the bullet. The gap has little effect if in limits. I have never known S&W to have bad dimensions.
The likely cause is the loading info and what test gun they used to record their velocities. Many guys don't have a chrono and rely on published figures for their estimate of what they get. It is doubtful if any powder company will publish loads as high as 60,000 due to liability.
My friend bought a .45 Vaquero and some 335 gr WLNGC LBT's. They told him to start at 19.5 grs and work up until he got pressure signs. I fell off my seat when he told me he went to 30 grs without sticky cases or flat primers. WARNING, DON'T ATTEMPT THIS.
I have found over the years that loading manuals are too optimistic with their velocities. Factory loads can be higher due to powder we can't buy.

I will check my handloader magazines for loads and keep an eye out for new data.

mountaingun, I think the my 500 is slow because I'm only getting 1550 fps. using a max load (42 gr) of Lil'Gun. That's the long and short of it.

Kingfisher,
I don't know nuthin about the 500 S&W, but I am still curious as to why you think your gun is slow. If there were any load particulars given, I missed it. If you can provide sufficient detail, I'll run the numbers through Quickload for you (for 4227 or H110; Quickload hasn't added Lil Gun yet).

By the way, I tried Lil Gun recently in a 357, after seeing the impressive velocities on Hodgdon's website and hearing good things about it. As it turned out, I couldn't cram enough Lil Gun into the case to produce normal 357 velocities, much less the superior velocites that Hodgdon shows. Dunno what the deal is -- maybe I got a slow lot, maybe Lil Gun needs a long barrel to burn well, whatever, it was way, way, slower than what the Hodgdon data suggested. I'm sticking with H110/296, thank you very much.

jro, I know, mine is 10". BFR revolver, so we will be very close.

My 45/70 barrel is only 14" long with brake.

Kingfisher,I'm going to zero my 500 with those 270 gr bullets at 100 yds and i'll use my conograph. These have been loaded awhile sense july 03. I used LiL'GUN. So we'll see how they do in a couple weeks. It is suppose to rain this week-end.

Well I shot off those 275gr bullets today throught my conagraph and they were going 1293fps with a max load of LIL'GUN witch said they would go 2023 fps. Theres nothing wrong with my gun its the powder. I will reload these with No9 powder.

Thanks for the update JRO45. I just found the reloading data for the AA powders in the 500 and downloaded the PDF. I'm going to try the AA9 and the AA4100 and see what happens. I'm also about to order more bullets. BTW, Smith and Wesson emailed me this...

"sir-the velocity spec i have is 1665 ft. with 275
1675 with the 400 -1625 with the 440
sounds like your in the ball park "

I still think the gun should do better, especially since it used to! Who knows though. It could be my lot of LilGun is no good too. Hopefully the AA9 or AA4100 will make a difference.

sure I want a safty margin but I really don't think I'm taking chances or hurting my 500 say at 55000 psi but I don't know what the psi is with my 500gr bullets going at 1419fps. If I could find out I could judge my loads better.
I don't have any load info on the 500gr bullets so I took a chance I deducked 5 gr from the 400 load because the 325gr load was 5gr below the 400 gr load. So by doing this I thought I'd be close to what it could do. But I still need the psi info for my load. May be a different powder No9 is pretty slow burning. But AA4100 is used for shotguns.

I E-Mailed Hogdon about the LIL'GUN and the FPS I got with my load of LIL GUN with the 275 gr bullets. I've been loading all my 500 loads out of one bottle of LIL'GUN. So maybe it a bad batch. My lot # is 1 04030328 on the bottom of the plastic bottle. Is your's the same? I really wouldn't think so. Well if it isn't a bad lot then that powder isn't any good.

I have heard others complain of Li'l Gun not performing as advertised. I use H110 for high end loads, never any problems.
Jason

H-110 was the worst of the 3 that I tried, suprisingly, Lil Gun was the best or atleast it was initially. I think this last round 4227 was the best. I ordered a box of the 400 gr. Sierra's today plus 100 of the Remington 385 gr. HP's. We'll see what happens.

The manager at a different forum is going to talk to steve Hodgdon at the Hodgdon plant and find out whats up with LIL'GUN then let me know. So I hope its good news.

Oh my, you are a glutten for punishment. I would polish it up nice and hang it for a display. You can brag that you actually did shoot it. I am not recoil sensitive and can continue to hit point of aim with blood pouring from my knuckle but that little thing is beyond what I would call fun.
.44 special loads with a round ball instead of a boolit might make it fun.

This is just a status update for anyone that might be interested. My 500 S&W arrived back today from Smith and Wesson. I sent it in about 3 weeks ago for sub par velocities that I suspected were caused by excessive barrel/cylinder gap. Well, the conclusion is that they appear to have replaced the barrel on the gun. They didn't say exactly what they did on the repair sheet, all it says is "Repaired/Tested" after the problem description from me. The barrel to cylinder gap is definitely smaller, probably 50% I'd say. It appears to be down around .005-.006 as far as I can tell, and it was somewhere in the neighborhood of .009-.010 when I sent it in. The breach face appears to be freshly machined and the protuding part of the breach that is exposed to the cylinder has rings machined into it on the outside that weren't there before I sent it in. Anyway, needless to say, I think this is going to finally put the gun where it needs to be. We'll know more this weekend but I'm confident that this is going to help me get the velocities that I was expecting.

More to follow.

BTW - Total turn around time was about 3 weeks.

Wow! that still seems like a large gap. Have not been in the Smith & Wesson market for a while. My blackhawk 45 runs right at .003 and the new BFR 475 a tight .002 The FA 454 I had before a divorce was right at .002 also and you say the original was .009-.010. Glad I am sticking with Single actions now Do not think, if I recall my 657's or 629's ever running that high. Should have never parted with that 657 4" pinned and recessed, anyone have one they want to part with?

I came over here to this forum to read some info and your over here bad mouthing us guys over here at sixgunner. You obviously are too immature to try to talk to the guys on sixgunner. I happen to think that when you become recognized enough to start writting in Guns magizine like JOHN TAFFIN then I will pay attention to you. I usually dont scold people on these forums but, you simply insulted me and if you were not so stuck on your own theories you may have been able to glean some information. You I hope never return to sixgunner Grow up!!!!

JRO & JT, now that the 385's and the 400's are here, considering my results with Lil Gun and H-4227 in the past, would you guys bother with the same powders or would you completely change it up from the get-go? I'm going to pick up some AA-9, and probably some AA-4100 but I was wondering if you guys thought it would atleast be worth a shot to give the powders I have on hand a try (or what you would do).

Regards,
Tom

Try this website I hoe it helps. 323
http://www.reloadammo.com/500sw.htm

323, I've tried LIL'GUN in my 275 gr bullets and with max load I got 1293FPS but I shot the H4227 in my colt 45 and it seemed to be there with the fps not for sure I didn't use my conagraph.

Tom, I haven't tried the H4227 yet so I might try some, but the LIL'GUN is out of the question. I'm going to stick with No9 and AA4100 and see how H4227 works out. Would like to know how the AA4100 works out for you.
John

JRO45 it is my understanding they are PROOFED to 80000PSI Sammi specs as I understand it is 60000 psi.
Don't you want to have a safety margin?

One thing that I forgot to mention was that they appear to have also replaced the spring in the ball detent mechanism that holds the cylinder in place. Although they didn't say anything about it, the cylinder locks up much tighter than it ever did before and has a lot more tension on it if you hold the hammer at half cock and try to spin the cylinder. I'm sure they installed it due to the fact that some folks have been having trouble with the cylinder rotating during firing of heavy loads.



Smith and Wesson said their spec on the gap was .004 to .010 so I was right at the limit before. I'm certainly happy with where it is now.

I'm interested to no how it is going to shoot for you. Doesn't seem like it took to long. Haven't shot mine for awhile. Just loaded some contender 45/70 loads 300gr bullet at 1550 fps. want to see if these will zero at 100 yds.