I have some very accurate loads worked up with the 240-grain XTP for my 10.5-inch Super Blackhawk. For some reason I am not getting similar accuracy with 300s, either cast or jacketed.
What is your favorite for blackies? Our bears here can go well over 400 pounds.

Nosler 300gr HP shoots real good in several of my revolvers and even in my 1894P stubby levergun. Does bad stuff to 350lb Russian hogs too. Goes thru both shoulders leaving behind a hole you can shove a golfball thru.

Personaly I prefer a wide meplat flat point hard cast bullet for any animal that will go 400 pounds or more. I use more wide meplat hard cast for any size animal, big, little, short or tall it kills them all

Your 240 gr XYPs will work just fine on black bears. Been there, done that, in Oregon too!
I was using them over 24.5 gr H110 at 1425 fps out of a 7.5" barreled Ruger BH. Was about a 250 lb BB at 35 -40 yards for 1st shot and 70 -75 yards for 2nd shot. Two shots through the side into the heart lung area. Both exited out the back side and the wound channel showed excellent expansion. Bear only went another 30 - 40 yards after 2nd shot. The bear momentarily stopped allowing the 2nd shot, I always am ready for a 2nd and even a 3rd shot.

Larry Gibson

I shot a black bear in 1983 with my Ruger 10.5.....as I recall I used a 240 grain bullet as well.

I shot a Montana black bear in 1976 (It doesn't seem that long ago) with one shot with my 7.5" Super Blackhawk. 245 gr hard cast Lyman #429421 with a gas check over 23.0 gr of WW 296. About a 30 yd spot and stalk shot broadside behind the shoulder. Bear ran about 20 yds and fell dead.

Shot another bear back in 1973 in NW Colorado with one 220 gr hard cast SWC bullet from my .45 ACP. I chased that bear up a tree, and at the shot, he fell out of the tree, dead.

Thanks fellas. Shot the loads again today over a chronograph. Starline brass, Fed. 150 primer, Hornady 240-grain XTP, 25.0 grains Aliant Power-Pro 300 MP, avg of three 5-shot strings was 1524 fps, three-inch five-shot group at 50 yards and at 100, bullet was about 2.5 inches low.
I think this load out of my 10.5-inch SBH with irons is a deer and bear killer.

a 250 grain or heavier lfn or swc at 1100-1200 fps has worked best for me. If i HAD to use a jacketed bullet it would be a 300 xtp. Id give up a small amount of accuracy for the benifits of a heavier bullet. Most bear are shot at 50 yards or less and a load that does 4 inch at that distance is plent accurate enough.

I am for heavier,and if an jhp is your preference perfect broadside shots only,no quatering shots.I have been fortunate to have taken several and been a part of many more.I like the jsp over the jhp and the 270gr speer jsp works extremely well.A 280 wfn/lfn will also work well.A 400+lbder could be lean or have lots of fat to deal with and their front shoulder bones are dense.Like Lloyd said I'd also give up some accuracy for a heavier projectile.

I love my lee 315 gr hard cast at just under 1300fps, Ny buddys who have shot bears with just love it. Easy to cast cheap to shoot over a max load of h110

Guys: I had the SBH in my hands not an hour ago in the mountains above us with a 300-pound blackie not 50 yards away, but he was in dry brush and I could not get a shot or get closer.
I'm a caster, but don't have any heavy .430 molds just now, so will ask my casting buddy to run some heavies for me. I'll try to work up a good, accurate load with a 300 or 325. Meantime, I won't quit hunting just because I am out of cast loads ...

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Guys: I had the SBH in my hands not an hour ago in the mountains above us with a 300-pound blackie not 50 yards away, but he was in dry brush and I could not get a shot or get closer.
I'm a caster, but don't have any heavy .430 molds just now, so will ask my casting buddy to run some heavies for me. I'll try to work up a good, accurate load with a 300 or 325. Meantime, I won't quit hunting just because I am out of cast loads ...

You aren't going to get any improvement with cast. Your XTP is about the best there is. The XTP is a very good bullet, BUT I wonder if you aren't driving it a bit too fast. Let us know the gory details when you whack Yogi.

quote:

Originally posted by dla:
You aren't going to get any improvement with cast. Your XTP is about the best there is. The XTP is a very good bullet, BUT I wonder if you aren't driving it a bit too fast. Let us know the gory details when you whack Yogi.

dla, I have to ask. Did you have a bad experience with cast bullets? You seem not to miss any opportunity to bash cast bullets. Just curious. Care to share?

Cast bullets in the 44 maggie are great bear stoppers, they penetrate well from any angle & kill as well as jacketed bullets. On dangerous game which would you rather have penetration or expansion? Would you pass on an angling shot?
The classic broadside shot on big game is rare in the real world.

Dick

quote:

The classic broadside shot on big game is rare in the real world.

I seriously question the above statement. What are you calling big game? I have shot literally dozens of what I would consider big game standing broadside, including one bull elk. Guess how he presented himself for the shot?

What am I calling big game? Deer, elk, moose, bear, antelope, mountain lion, african plains game, etc. I've taken all of them with sixguns & I'll stick with what I said, the classic broadside shot might show up on TV but where I hunt ( in the mountains) its rare. The main reason is, they are seldom on the same level as the shooter, they might be broadside but finding one that isn't above you or below you at a steep angle just doesn't happen very often.
Where you live in Texas that might not be a problem, I've shot a fair amount of game there also & shooting on flat ground is much more common, also the distance is normally quite close compared to the western US.
I've taken 27 elk, many with handguns, can't remember a single one that was both broadside & on the same level.
Here's a 6' 9" color phase bear taken at a steep angle (broadside) at 81 yds, Ruger 44 maggie & 250 Keith cast slug, one shot.



Bull moose, taken with a Ruger 480 shooting steep downhill (off hand) 370 gr cast slug, also one shot.



Nice muley buck, Ruger 44 maggie, extremely steep down hill shot (65 yds) he was laying behind a log, gun is in the old Lawrence shoulder rig.



Cow elk, I think it was about 60 yds, steep down hill angle, 41 maggie & a 230 gr Keith cast slug, again one shot. Shot through the right front shoulder, bullet exited in front of left hip, you can see the exit hole just to the right of my holster.



Very nice bull elk, Ruger 44 maggie in the Lawrence shoulder rig, extremely steep down hill angle, I think about 50 yds, 250 gr Keith cast slug.



Average size color phase bear, Ruger 10" 44 maggie, shot almost length ways.



Cow elk, 168 yds, Ruger 45 & 260 gr Keith, quartering angle, one shot.



Cow elk, below me & quartering towards me, Ruger 41 maggie, 74 yds, 250 gr LBT cast slug, penetrated both front shoulders & exited.



Wyoming muley buck, Ruger 41 maggie, 230 gr cast slug at about 90 yds, facing me straight on, bullet exited in front of left hind quarter.



Montana whitetail buck, running at a sharp angle, Ruger 44 special, 250 gr Keith, shot 3 times, hit with 2 of them, complete penetration.



Montana whitetail, 75-80 yds running almost straight away, Ruger 41 Bisley, 230 gr cast slug, one shot, complete penetration.



Dick

Hi Dick!

Welcome to AR. I have enjoyed your photos and posts on SP, 24 hr CF, and Handgun Hunter. I certainly respect your opinion as an accomplished handgun hunter. If I understand correctly, in some cases you are using a "softnose cast" bullet. I find that concept intriguing. If I understand correctly, a softnose cast is basically a "controlled expansion" all-lead bullet. Would you mind sharing your thoughts on when you feel that a softnose cast bullet is appropriate?

Thanks in advance!

Darrell H

Dick, I am impressed. You definitely handle a revolver!

I also now understand what you meant by broadside, now that you have explained where you hunt. You are correct: almost all of TX is flat, and where I hunt typically is as flat as a table. I have been to the west only a few times, and yes, elevation differences are quite common. I do remember, however, a 42" Shiras moose standing broadside at less than 30 yards, me with my 4" Model 57 on one hip. Tempted"? Yes, but not enough to commit a felony!

Hello Darrell, thank you! Yes I use softnose cast quite often because you get the best of both worlds, expansion & penetration. With handguns, because we use wide flatnose bullets I think penetration is the most important, thats assuming you hit the right spot!
The softnose cast concept is very much like the Nolser partition, the front part quickly expands, usually shears off & then the back half continues on for complete penetration, its pretty much fool proof.
Once place where it can really come into play is if you are using a somewhat small caliber that needs some "help" expansion! Something like a 357 magnum or 357 maximum, you get rapid expansion up to perhaps 50%, then the back, hard section makes a complete pass through.
Once you settle on the velocity you want you just adjust the amount of pure lead on the nose & with a little experimenting they really are the finest handgun bullet out there for big game.
This bull moose was taken with the 41 maggie & a 230 gr softnose cast, shot was straight on & the bullet penetrated about 4 feet! One shot & down in 15 seconds.



Muley buck, Ruger 10" 357 Maximum, 173 gr Keith softnose cast, angling shot through both lungs at 108 yds, complete penetration & great expansion.



You can see there was a lot of expansion through the lungs with the softnose cast.



Another nice muley, Ruger 357 Maximum & 173 gr Keith softnose cast.



I use 2 melting pots at the same time with the mould sitting in between them, I take a small dipper of pure lead from the left pot, pour it in the mould & quickly top it off with a larger portion of WW alloy & then water quench, this method makes perfect bullets for hunting big game, they are easily as good if not better than any jacketed handgun slug.

The best of 3 warthogs taken in South Africa, 2 with single shots & one with a Freedom Arms 475 & a 370 gr softnose cast.



Muley buck, 44 maggie, 250 gr Keith, walking towards me at 55 yds.



Muley doe, facing directly away from me, Ruger 44 maggie, 250 gr Keith, shot went in the tail pipe & exited the center chest. About 45 yds.



Another Montana whitetail, walking towards me at about 15 yds, straight on head shot with the Ruger 41 Bisley & 230 gr Keith.



One of 4 feral hogs taken in Texas, Ruger 41 maggie & 230 gr Keith cast slug, shot was angling behind the right ear, exited lower left jaw.



Dick

Welcome to the forum, Dick! Took you long enough to get here!

quote:

The softnose cast concept is very much like the Nolser partition, the front part quickly expands, usually shears off & then the back half continues on for complete penetration, its pretty much fool proof.
Once place where it can really come into play is if you are using a somewhat small caliber that needs some "help" expansion!

Thanks for that information Dick! If I understand correctly you are at least using the expanding cast bullets in the .41 and .357 calibers. Do you always use softnose cast bullets (regardless of caliber) or do you use non-expanding hard casts too? I noticed in the warthog photo caption above that you were using the expanding casts even in .475 caliber. Sorry for all the questions, but I find this subject very interesting.

Dick Thompson, Thank you for the wonderful photos and informative post. I found both very interesting. You are obviously a very accomplished handgun hunter. One question please if I may. Approximately how much lead do you pour for the nose of the expanding cast bullets?

I don't think that I'm alone when I ask if we could have another thread dedicated to this soft-nosed hardcast idea? Whether it's here or in the cast boolits section makes no diff. to me.

X-caliber, I actually have used them in every handgun caliber known to man! Anytime you feel like you need a little more "whack" then the softnose is the way to go, the neat thing about them is you can control how much expansion you get depending on what your velocity is, like I said earlier, its really fool proof with a little experimenting.
I did make a mistake on my earlier post, the 370 gr cast on the warthog wasn't a softnose, it was a regular hard cast slug.
I first read about softnose 5-6 years ago when Ross Seyfried wrote an article in the Handloader magazine, I did some experimenting on my own & its amazing the results you get on game using them.
Swamp Shooter, I normally use a 380 or 9mm case with a wire handle attached, thats my "dipper" for the pure lead, you want to experiment here a little bit to get the amount you like. I want the pure lead to be above the ogive or first driving band depending on the bullet style I'm using, that way if there's a little imperfection at the junction where the 2 alloys connect it doesn't matter.
daniel77, after reading the Ross Seyfried article I started casting lots of them & shooting them into wet newspaper that was soaked overnight inside a water softner plastic bag, very, very impressive!
You want the mould quite hot, also run the alloy a little hotter than normal, you want them to "weld" together when you pour them into the mould.
As mentioned I place the mould on a flat piece of steel plate so its level, then I have a small pot of pure lead on my left & a larger pot of WW alloy on my right, now, using 2 dippers at the same time I pour in the small amount of pure lead & quickly top it off with the WW alloy & drop the slugs into a bucket of cold water, I have a rag sitting down in the water with a hole punched in the center of the rag, the bullets fall on the rag, roll to the center & drop to the bottom, they've cooled enough by that time that they don't deform. You want to size them within a few hours because they get quite hard in a hurry, although the front part stays pure lead.
Don't worry about a small seam at the junction, doesn't affect accuracy at all, then do your practing with your regular bullets & save the softnose for when you're serious about hunting.
Here's a photo of my setup for casting softnose slugs: 2 pots, a steel plate in the middle where I sit the mould & 2 dippers.



Here's my steel plate & the 2 dippers. Remember, you don't need to make very many, just use your regular slugs for everyday shooting & use the "special" one's when you're hunting.



Another Montana whitetail taken with the Ruger Flattop 44 special using the "Skeeter" load, 7.5 grs of Unique & the 250 gr Keith slug. Both moose shown above were taken with softnose cast slugs.



Dick

Dick

Welcome to AR. Great pictures and Great info.

Welcome to the site!

Dang it! I've never gotten into casting and have never really had a desire to. I've been quite content depending on commercial casters for my cast bullets...until now!

Thanks again for the information Dick. I might be picking your brain a little later if you don't mind. This sounds like a good Winter project.

quote:

Originally posted by x-caliber:
Dang it! I've never gotten into casting and have never really had a desire to. I've been quite content depending on commercial casters for my cast bullets...until now!

Thanks again for the information Dick. I might be picking your brain a little later if you don't mind. This sounds like a good Winter project.

Casting is actually a lot of fun. A bit time consuming, but fun nonetheless.

Dick: Thanks for weighing in. I have enjoyed your posts on the SP forums too! I really think you should consider writing a book on your handgun hunting career. I doubt there are many others in North America with your "walk the walk" experience.
As to the cast soft points, it sounds like you must have a base-pour mold for it to work right. Nice to know the joint seam is plenty strong for hunting work.

Bill, sorry for the late reply, I've been in Jackson Hole, Wyoming all day with some handgun guests (Pittsburg & Baltimore)
Yes I use base pour moulds & the seam is almost invisable, some will tell you to pour the pure lead & then hesitate slightly for it to "set", I don't do that, the second dipper is very close to the mould when you add it so don't worry about the 2 metals mixing, it works just fine to add it immediatlely & as mentioned the joint is slight & very strong...just try pulling them apart with a pair of pliers!! You can't do it, even twisting, they actually weld together.

Dick

Dick

I have actually driven through Soda Springs, ID.

I have hunted several times around the Elk City area.

Next time I cast bullets [this fall when it cools off ], I will try to make some Soft Nosed Cast bullets [SNC], in my H&G Keith mold, No 503 if I remember correctly.

I will have to get a second lead pot, I see you use the Lee, is their another made now that you would recommend. I use a Lyman now.

I have some pure lead for the nose, and I will use Linotype for the rest of the bullet.

N E 450 #2, When I first started making softnose cast I make a small cylinder that sat down inside my bigger pot, the small cylinder held the pure lead, you only need a small amount. I would dip the pure lead out & then quickly top it off with the WW or in your case linotype, if you use linotype you won't need to water quench, just drop them on the padded table & you're ready to size & lube.
I've also used a small pot on a coleman stove for the pure lead, you could also use a propane burner, lots of options. Just need to make sure the mould is quite hot & the same with your alloys.
If you think you are making some bad bullets just seperate them & shoot a group with the bad ones, you'll be surprised how well they group.

Dick

Dick

Thanks for the info.

Next time I cast I will give it a try.

I have been casting bullets since 1968 when I cast bullets for my dad and I to shoot Bullseye Competition.

We started using wheelweights, then he flund some scrap linotype.

After using it I found a couple of print shops, made friends with the head guys and I could buy all we needed.

It came in 22 to 24 lb bars designed for the linotype machines.

Dick, very impressive collection of game with your handguns.

Nice photos Dick. Thanks for sharing them.
I've made a few soft nose, hard based bullets with of a .45 cal 340 gr. LBT LFN mould years ago, for my old Freedom Arms .45 Colt. I used a steel measuring spoon for the nose pour.
They shot OK, but I never took anything with them back then. They were slow to cast, so gave them up shortly after. I remember Ross Seyfried saying that hitting Feral Donkeys with them was like hitting a varmint with a 22-250. They just dropped.
May have to break out the measuring spoon once again and give them a try.
Cheers, and welcome to the forum!

DWright, any other handgun bullet on the market has some kind of "weak" point, either it is going to fast when it hits & expansion is minimal, or its going to slow & you get little or not expansion (talking jacketed bullets here) even hollow point cast can fail if the alloy isn't correct, maybe you stretch the distance a bit, perhaps you run the bullet too fast, etc.
With the softnose you don't worry about speed, you don't worry about distance, you don't worry about hardness, the reason is that pure lead nose is always pure, its going to expand, the rear portion is always hard, you are going to get penetration.
You do have to tinker a bit with how much pure lead you want but stay above full diameter, that is you don't want the pure lead coming in contact with the rifling, plus, that much pure lead isn't needed.
If any need to try a few, drop me an addy & I'll see you get some, I make every caliber for handguns.

Dick

quote:

Posted 03 August 2010 05:34 Hide Post
Guys: I had the SBH in my hands not an hour ago in the mountains above us with a 300-pound blackie not 50 yards away, but he was in dry brush and I could not get a shot or get closer.
I'm a caster, but don't have any heavy .430 molds just now, so will ask my casting buddy to run some heavies for me. I'll try to work up a good, accurate load with a 300 or 325. Meantime, I won't quit hunting just because I am out of cast loads ...

No need for you to work a load with 300 to 325 gr boolits. (Cast ONLY!)
Use 21.5 gr of 296 for the SBH and the FED 150 primer. You need good case tension and only roll the crimp all the way into the groove, do not over crimp.
The only thing that will regulate the accuracy of this load is the expander you got with your die set. Hornady dies make the most accurate loads. If your expander is too long or big in diameter you have a problem for any bullet.
The expander should only go into the brass 3/8" before flaring and the ID should be .427"-.428".
Use a hard enough boolit so seating does not size the boolit.
Use a soft, sticky lube like Felix, LBT soft Blue or LBT Magnum.
A very good boolit is the Lee C430-310-RF. Try for as close as you can get to .432" boolit diameter but even .430" will shoot. (This will depend on what the mold drops but the Lee has been large enough.)
Use WW metal and drop boolits in a five gallon bucket of water, seat checks, lube and run through a Lee push through size die lapped to .432". Then let the boolits age harden and expand at least a week before loading them.
Soft lube can be rubbed into the grooves with your fingers or the boolits can be pan lubed. I use the Lee die to remove excess lube, not size.
If you can't get 1" or under at 50 yards, buy new dies or fix the set you have.
For a 300 gr XTP, use the same primer and 20.5 gr of 296.
Lesson for the day, take it or leave it!

I forgot, the Lee die works better to seat checks if you run them through upside down.
You must seat the checks.

quote:

Posted 27 August 2010 09:15 Hide Post
DWright, any other handgun bullet on the market has some kind of "weak" point, either it is going to fast when it hits & expansion is minimal, or its going to slow & you get little or not expansion (talking jacketed bullets here) even hollow point cast can fail if the alloy isn't correct, maybe you stretch the distance a bit, perhaps you run the bullet too fast, etc.
With the softnose you don't worry about speed, you don't worry about distance, you don't worry about hardness, the reason is that pure lead nose is always pure, its going to expand, the rear portion is always hard, you are going to get penetration.
You do have to tinker a bit with how much pure lead you want but stay above full diameter, that is you don't want the pure lead coming in contact with the rifling, plus, that much pure lead isn't needed.
If any need to try a few, drop me an addy & I'll see you get some, I make every caliber for handguns.

Dick

I have to agree with this 100%! I have made many, many of the soft nose boolits. I have the original LBT soft nose casting pot. I don't shoot them much because all we have here are deer and a hard boolit from the .44 or .475 works fine on them.
I have two revolvers that are going to need them so I need to drag the stuff out and get busy.
You can make a cast boolit do ANYTHING you want it to unlike buying jacketed.
I do not trust the XTP 240 gr, they expand too fast and I recovered every one with lung hits on deer. So someone always says they are shot too fast which is true, however, where is the bullet accurate? It takes 24 gr of 296--PERIOD, for accuracy. I will not hunt with bullets downloaded to shotgun pattern status.
With cast you make the boolit match the velocity needed not the other way around.
It is pure folly to try and make a 300 gr or larger .44 boolit shoot at 800 fps when the boolit length and twist dictates it needs a little over 1300 fps to be stable.
Some fellas have magic guns where the barrels wind up and down to vary the twist rate for the boolit and velocity automatically.
Far easier to make a lighter boolit shoot different velocities but there are still limits if you want accuracy.
There was a beginner on another site shooting a 325 gr boolit at 600 fps and wanted to know why he could not shoot it faster. Some "expert" told him he could not shoot lead fast!

WOW
looks like you having a great time Dick
I am curious though have you ever experimented with hollow points in your cast
and how well do you think the soft nose would do with a hollow point ??