Here is a picture of a 400 grain (475 caliber) XTP (hollow point) that didn't expand much and failed to exit a mule deer. Yet people oh and ah about hollow points. This has been my experience numerous times. In my experience the reason it did not exit is that it tumbled. I do use these bullet but do not see a better wound channel than the flat point hard casts that I use often not as larger. This is the bullet that many think is better than a proper flat point hard cast.



Thread is here, http://www.handgunhunt.com/for...in/13228/#Post129864

So it acted more like a solid, and cast bullets are no good? Some folks just don't realize how much they don't know.

Maybe they should get out and kill more than a couple of animals before proclaiming themselves an expert.

MS I don't think that was jwp's point. As I see it he was saying that people use the hollow point jacketed bullet thinking that they will get expansion and hence a better wound channel, when in fact in his example he got NO expansion, and a no better wound channel (than a "cast lead" bullet). In addition to the lack of expansion, the bullet did not exit (due to tumbling) whereas a cast lead would exit. If I misinterpreted your post I apologise.
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
MS I don't think that was jwp's point. As I see it he was saying that people use the hollow point jacketed bullet thinking that they will get expansion and hence a better wound channel, when in fact in his example he got NO expansion, and a no better wound channel (than a "cast lead" bullet). In addition to the lack of expansion, the bullet did not exit (due to tumbling) whereas a cast lead would exit. If I misinterpreted your post I apologise.
Peter.

The wound channel would not be a large as a proper nose shape me plat hard cast in my experience. Most people think that they will do the same as a proper hard cast and this has not been my experience

Yes, people simply assume that a hollow point always expands and this is simply not the case

Peter,

My remarks weren't directed at jwp. Just all the self-proclaimed experts on the subject. JWP knows better.

And when they don't expand, they do a piss poor imitation of a flat-nosed hardcast.

I think there's something to remember especially with JHPs. They frequently don't perform as advertised. In fact you can get some off results with just about any kind of bullet in any kind of gun.

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:
I think there's something to remember especially with JHPs. They frequently don't perform as advertised. In fact you can get some off results with just about any kind of bullet in any kind of gun.

A proper hard cast in my experience being the most consistent performer and is what I use when serious

Maybe I am missing something, but I read the original thread and it appeared this is the only bullet this particular gent had fail. That included two bull elk. So are we saying that hard cast never fail like this one bullet did?

Don't get me wrong, I order frequently from Montana Bullet Works for my pistol, but I have never seen the need on any deer. Bigger tougher stuff, sure, but not a deer.

Larry, I agree. For our Mid-South whitetails I think hard cast is overkill. And I have used both. In one case I think the HC was counter-productive.

When hogs show up here, I may re-visit that question. Or if I ever make it on that E. TN bear hunt, I'm thinking either JSP or HC. Not sure which.

Larry, one out of three failing is still too high a percentage for me. It's the inconsistency that kills it for me. I killed a hog this past Saturday with the same bullet and while it killed the animal, there is no telling if it opened or not, particularly at the subdued speeds I shot them at. If an expanding bullet doesn't open, what's the point? If it doesn't open and doesn't penetrate well, what's the point. A plugged hollow-point still won't produce the wound channel of a hardcast bullet with a large meplat.

Shack, there are no degrees of dead. If it works, is it really "overkill?"

I'm still curious as to why some people are hung up on expansion in a bullet that starts at 0.476". That's fairly expanded as far am I'm concerned.

10-4 Rob. Hornady XTPs are as hard as concrete. They almost never expand. Even the 325 at a faster velocity rarely expand, but they do create a little shock wave damage due to the speed. The old 335 gr. BRPs do a fantastic job with tissue damage due to their speed and big meplat.

quote:

If it works, is it really "overkill?"

I only tried it the one time and the placement was OK, but the result wasn't the usual bang-flop with JHPs. So I guess it was under-kill. Yeah, I know that's no real test.

quote:

Originally posted by larrys:
Maybe I am missing something, but I read the original thread and it appeared this is the only bullet this particular gent had fail. That included two bull elk. So are we saying that hard cast never fail like this one bullet did?

Don't get me wrong, I order frequently from Montana Bullet Works for my pistol, but I have never seen the need on any deer. Bigger tougher stuff, sure, but not a deer.

I did not see where any other bullets were recovered so how can you make this assumption. I never call a bullet taken from a dead animal a failure

quote:

Originally posted by MS Hitman:
I'm still curious as to why some people are hung up on expansion in a bullet that starts at 0.476". That's fairly expanded as far am I'm concerned.

Exactly

Hard Cast vs Exanding, Random thoughts...

First, adequate penetration is paramount.
Second, the bigger the diameter the bullet the greater the damage.
Can WE all agree on the above???

What the hard cast bullet does...
A SWC or a LBT sytle bullet with a large meplat cuts/crushes tissue in its path. If of proper design, shot from a barrel of proper twist they will travel in a straight line, and are good at breaking and penetrating bone.
They are Predictable...

A jacketed expanding bullet [HP SP or a Barnes XPB] if they expand, will always cause more damage, IF it penetrates enough.
However any expanding bullet usually will penetrate less, than a nonexpanding bullet.

When a bullet turns sideways/tumbles it WIll penetrate less. It can cause more damage side ways, but will it penetrate deep enough???

Also if an expanding bullet expands on one side more than another, it can cause it to NOT travel in a straight line and to go sideways...
This makes it less predictable...

So, when choosing a hangun hunting bullet, I consider penetration FIRST.

I consider calibre/diameter, bullet weight and velocity, suitable to the animal to be hunted.

IF, an expanding bullet, in the handgun I will be shooting, at the game I will be hunting, will give enough penetration, I might consider one.

I have killed deer, pigs, and black bear with expanding bullets, with perfect results.

I have killed deer and pigs with Keith SWC's with perfect results as well.

I have also shot some African animals with expanding bullets and hard cast lead bullets as well.

MY bottom line is, when using a handgun, IF you use a hard cast SWC or LBT style bullet, your results can be predicted, you will have max straight line penetration.

IF, on the game you are shooting, IF, an expanding bullet will give adequate penetration, then IMHO an expanding bullet, will cause more damage.

BUT, PENETRATION is the PRIME FACTOR.

You must have enough...

There is a reason, even when using the most powerful RIFLES on the Planet, that Solids are used for Elephants, Rhino, Hippo, body shots on Giraffe, and most always recommended for follow up shots on cape buff...

STRAIGHT LINE PENETRATION...

PS read my bullet penetration reports on standard pressure 45 Colt ammo in the "Colt or clone" thread.

Not to take away from NE 450's informative post, but I'd like to interject a question here of everyone. Has anyone ever recovered a Hornady XTP from a game animal? What animal and what did the bullet look like? What caliber and velocity?

And for my purposes I'd really be interested in knowing if it was the .44 Mag 240 gr. XTP JHP. It's what I've been using on deer, but have never recovered one.

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:
Not to take away from NE 450's informative post, but I'd like to interject a question here of everyone. Has anyone ever recovered a Hornady XTP from a game animal? What animal and what did the bullet look like? What caliber and velocity?

And for my purposes I'd really be interested in knowing if it was the .44 Mag 240 gr. XTP JHP. It's what I've been using on deer, but have never recovered one.

There are 2 versions of the XTP the standard and the XTP mag and they are of different toughness. The picture of the bullet I posted was not a failure as many are assuming, after all it came from a dead animal.

The original Sierra JHC has 1 1/2% antimony core and a reasonably heavy jacket and was designed for deep penetration not expansion

A large bore revolver really doesn't need expansion to be effective

again all bullets are not created equal

I recovered two 400gr Hornady XTP's fired in a 6" 475 Linebaugh into Zebra at close range.

Ine was found against the skin on the far side, the other was actually sticking out of the skin backwards...

Both had expanded perfectly.

I also killed a deer and 150lb pig and a small black bear with the same ammo and all were pasthroughs.

I really enjoy the XTP's, but have never seen any act as those pictures show!

I have recovered several .454 300 gr. XTPs ,at full power, from lowly whitetail deer. They were not expanded and weighed 300 gr. If you can recover them from whitetails, then you don't need to be using them on large game. Since then I never use XTPs on anything important, just little stuff until my suppl is gone. The only casts I've used that did not penetrate completely were on rhino and one of two shots on a water buffalo.(.475s)

So what JHPs besides Hornady XTPs has anyone recovered from a game animal that DID behave as advertised, with some or good expansion?

The only two kinds I've used in recent years/decades were made by Hornady and Cor-Bon (I've used others but it was target shooting). In the distant past I used Remingtons, but really don't recall ever finding one. In those days they ran them far hotter in 41 and 44 than now.

I don`t usually use jacketed,but when I do I use Speer Gold Dots.Shoot hearty my friends!!!

I used to use the 170 grain gold dot SP in my .357. I never had one fail to fully penetrate a deer. I've also used 158 grain XTPs on a few deer, but one was a head shot and one went clear through. I mostly use 240 grain Remington JSPs in my .44, because I've had some leading issues with cast bullets at (relatively) high velocity in my gun. The Remington's seem to be pretty predictable; half inch hole in, 1 1/2" hole out.

quote:

I don`t usually use jacketed,but when I do I use Speer Gold Dots.Shoot hearty my friends!!!

..the most interesting hunter alive...

My experience with the 210 to 240 class of jacketed is, if you're at about 1250 to 1450 fps you'll probably get complete penetration and your bang flop with some amount of "margin for error". What the bullet looks like afterwards, I can't say.

I have shot deer with several different 240gr bullets over the years,both SP and HP, many of then with a 44 Mag Rifle.

The only bullet thqt did not give complete penetration was a 240gr Speer, old style many years ago, not the new Gold Dot style.

It was fired from a 6 1/2" 44 Mag at 85 yards, slightly quartering toward me, and was found expanded just inder the skin of a fairly large bodied Buck.

The bullet had about a 40gr piece that has been cleved/sliced off the bullet after the mushroom.

I recovered the cut off part of the mushroom a couple of inches from the bullet.

That looks like the 140gr 357 Lever evolution I fired out of my M66 with 6" barrel. Barely lost the gummi tip. On the other hand I have had the 300gr 45 cal non magnum bullet work just fine.

jwp, there was no aggravation intended. I was just reading the full original thread and it did appear that others, including Whitworth, considered it a failure. I would agree with him in this case, thus the question. Yes, dead is dead, but I don't think it performed well under the constraints designed by Hornady. But it was just one. I have never recovered an XTP bullet, so I asked the question about cast for reference.

I got a lot of good information from this thread, so thanks for posting it.

I seem to recall Ken O'Neil being pretty pleased with the Hornady.

You're right Boxhead. Mostly anymore I ignore JHP vs. cast internet arguments as I consider them a waste of my time and energy.
This thread started as a commentary on my friend Gregg Richter's post on another forum regarding his shooting a mule deer with a .475 400 gr. Magnum XTP.
I like that bullet and have used it a lot on critters like hogs, large bear, bison, bull elk and South American water buffalo. I've not used it on deer, as I believe there are better bullets for that purpose. I feel the same about the excellent .500 350 gr. Magnum XTP.

With regard to the .454, Hornady has made the original XTP's and the Magnum XTP's. With those I've shot, the originals did so much bloody damage to whitetails @ 1350 fps MV, I quit using them.

Others are most certainly free to choose and use what they will. I'm happy. Well, maybe not so much - Hornady has discontinued the . 475 400 gr. XTP. If anyone wants to sell any, I'm buying.

Ken

If you can get some of the Speer 400gr SP bullets for the 475L you might give them a try.

I tested them side by side with the Hornady 400gr XTP's.

I had factory ammo, from Hornady and factory ammo from Buffalo Bore.

I shot both into Mike Brady's Ballistic Media test "box".

Both bullets expanded very good, but the Speer did hold together better, and penetrated farther.

I got some of the 400 gr. Speers from Terry Thompson at Omark/Speer in 1999 when they were still in development, and have bought some since. I've killed a couple hogs with them, and they performed satisfactorily, but the accuracy with them in my guns was not quite as good as the Hornady or cast 420 WFN's.
I have a couple boxes here and do plan to use them.