Hi all. I emailed the Idaho Fish and Game to ask if they would consider putting handguns useing straight walled pistol cartiges into the short range weapons category.
I'm proposing that everyone else out there that would want to use a handgun for the short range weapons hunts do the same.
Here is a link to the ID fish and game contact.
Maybe if enough people contacted them, they might consider it. I argued that straight walled pistol cartriges give a similar performance to muzzle loaders as far as range and trajectory. Also many muzzle loaders are useing pistol bullets in sabots. So why not allow us to use handguns. They could just restrict it to straight walled cartriges to keep out the hand-rifles shooting 300 WSM in a 14" Encore.
So go to the link and ask away.
Thanks
http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/inc/contact.cfm

Lar 45, Go to Utah F&G site and see what we can use and see if Idaho will follow suit
www.wildlife.utah.gov/proclamations/2006_biggame/

Idaho does allow the use of handguns and only restricts it to not useing a rimfire.

Idaho does have some hunts that are near populated areas that they call Short range weapon only hunts.
Short range weapons include; Muzzle loader, archery equipment, or crossbow and shotguns firing slugs or OO buck or larger.

What I am asking is for ID fish & game to add handguns to the allowable short range weapons list, and restrict the handguns to those firing a straight walled cartrige.

Ohio has a similar regulation, .357 or larger straight wall cartrige with a 5 1/2 inch or longer barrel
Mike

Makes sense to me so long as the pistol cartridges have a maximum range no greater than an approved shotgun slug or muzzleloader projectile. You might narrow your criteria to cartridges originally developed for use in revolvers or selfloader pistols. If you're willing to do without the 357 magnum you can specify forty to fifty caliber and a case no shorter than the 460 Rowland and no longer than the 460 S&W.

In Washington, our regulations used to address muzzle energy at 100 yards, barrel length and stuff like that. That led to a lot of heated phone conversations and irate letters about ballistic coefficients, retained velocity, etc., etc. The rules changed, and now we can hunt in Modern Firearms seasons with any CF handgun over .24 caliber with a barrel at least 4" long. You can use a S&W M-10 in 38 Special, an XP-100, a Contender or even a 1911.

We also have firearms restriction areas. These are typically near towns and cities, or in places where the Department of Fish & Wildlife expects a lot of hunters in a very small area. Here we can use shotguns, archery, muzzleloaders and "revolver-type handguns." Atrocious use of the English language aside, the phrase "revolver-type handguns" does keep out the mini-rifles and effectively limits the hunt to shorter-range weapons.

Any new regs must be clear and simple, so LEO's can interpret them on the spot and so buyers know what's legal. They must make sense, so people like us stop calling and writing letters. And the admin types in the Game Department must feel comfortable defending them in front of the legislature if it comes to that.

The goal is to give the State common sense regs that are easy to enforce, that let us hunt with wisely chosen handguns, and that don't encourage Inbred Jed to road-hunt elk with a Glock.


Okie John

Proposed: A definition of a short range hunting handgun and cartridge that is simple to understand and easy to enforce.

A legal short range hunting handgun shall be a revolver, self-loading pistol, or single-shot pistol with a barrel not less than five inches long, nor more than 12 inches long, as measured from breech face to the muzzle end of the rifled portion of the bore. Note: With this method the cylinder of a revolver is included in the barrel length measurement.

A legal short range hunting handgun cartridge shall have a straight case no shorter than 0.950 inch and no longer than 1.790 inches, and shall have a single projectile with a diameter of .400 to .510 inches. The bullet shall have a flattened tip or hollow nose at least half its diameter.

Approved cartridges include:

38 WCF*
10mm Auto
10mm Magnum
401 Herters Powermag
41 Magnum
414 Supermag
44 WCF*
44 S&W Russian*
44 S&W Special
44 Automag
44 Magnum
445 Supermag
45 S&W Schofield*
45 Colt
45 Winchester Magnum
454 Casull
460 Rowland (0.957 inches long)
460 S&W (1.790 inches long)
475 Linebaugh
475 Linebaugh Long
480 Ruger
50 Action Express
500 Wyoming Express
500 Linebaugh
500 Linebaugh Long
500 S&W

* Note that the 44 S&W Russian and 45 S&W Schofield fall within the definition of a legal cartridge. These cartridges, as well as many commercially available loads for the 44 S&W Special and 45 Colt, are not especially powerful. This low level of performance contributes to the short range safety interest but may result in less efficient harvests than other cartridges on the list. The 38 WCF and 44 WCF do not have straight cases but are explicitly permitted.

Or...

The 44 S&W Russian and 45 S&W Schofield cartridges are prohibited. The 38 WCF and 44 WCF are prohibited because they do not have straight cartridge cases. Bullet weight and velocity are not addressed as they cannot be verified in the field.

The likelihood of a humane kill is the measure for any hunting cartridge. It's hard to show that the 38-40 or the 44-40 outdo the 357 family by any meaningful standard, so if you proscribe the 357s, you should proscribe the 38-40 and the 44-40 as well. The straight case rule does that elegantly.

To clear things up, I'd add a list of cartridges that don't make the cut, and I'd start with the 25 ACP. Because of the velocity and bullet weight issues you mention, I'd put the 44 Russian and 45 Schofield on that list. The flatpoint bullet requirement prohibits RN loadings of the 44 Special and 45 Colt, so that's not an issue.


Okie John

Okie john I think some just buy the wannabe cowboy loads for the 45 long colt. Corbon and Grizzly 45lc loads are power packs and so are my handloads for my Blackhawk using meplat bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by Lar45:
Idaho does allow the use of handguns and only restricts it to not useing a rimfire.

Idaho does have some hunts that are near populated areas that they call Short range weapon only hunts.
Short range weapons include; Muzzle loader, archery equipment, or crossbow and shotguns firing slugs or OO buck or larger.

What I am asking is for ID fish & game to add handguns to the allowable short range weapons list, and restrict the handguns to those firing a straight walled cartrige.

Straight walled cartridge would include my encore 454 casull or a s&w 460 which is listed as a 250 yard handgun load can't get much more powerful.

quote:

Originally posted by okie john:
The likelihood of a humane kill is the measure for any hunting cartridge. It's hard to show that the 38-40 or the 44-40 outdo the 357 family by any meaningful standard, so if you proscribe the 357s, you should proscribe the 38-40 and the 44-40 as well. The straight case rule does that elegantly.

Done

quote:

To clear things up, I'd add a list of cartridges that don't make the cut, and I'd start with the 25 ACP. Because of the velocity and bullet weight issues you mention, I'd put the 44 Russian and 45 Schofield on that list. The flatpoint bullet requirement prohibits RN loadings of the 44 Special and 45 Colt, so that's not an issue.

I like the way you think, but the flat nose requirement arguably moves a handloaded Russian and Schofield into the mix.

I suggest sticking to the basics; listing certain calibers starts to make the process more complex. Besides, I've seen 38-40s loaded to rival the .41 mag and the "weak" 900 fps loads for a 45 Colt will shoot through a deer or broadside on an elk. So in my opinion, factory performance is not a legimate limiting factor.

Requesting to have a revolver with a minimum barrel length and caliber will most likely be your best chance to have added to the list of allowable weapons.

I like the way that Idaho has the definition of a legal handgun being anything but a rimfire cartrige. Let reasonable people decide for themselves what to use. Just not a rimfire.
Handguns are already legal to hunt with in Idaho.
What I want is for handguns to be allowed in the short range weapons category.
I don't think that it needs to be messed up with minimum caliber, bullet shape or case length. That's like saying handloads shall only be made with IMR powder.
I do think that a reasonable limitation of only straight walled cartriges will keep it simple to understand and enforce. This will still give people the freedom to make individual choices and use what they deem to be appropriate.