Has anyone loaded these with 4227 ? If so what velocity. ? Will the twist in a River Blackhawk stabilize them in the air and in a big anlmal? ?? Thanks.

What is a River Blackhawk or what is the twist?

Strange gun indeed!
It must flow with the shot.
I guess he means Ruger with a 1 in 16" twist.
That is borderline because it is tough to reach a velocity for stability. I would say the 335 gr boolit is tops.
That boolit needs a .454 or .460.

Double Tap sells a load that is a .360 grain WFN that runs right around 1,150 and they have proven quite accurate in our testing. They were shot out of a 5-inch Blackhawk (cottonstalk's).

My phone seems to like to replace the word Ruger with the word river. Sorry for the confusion. I also have some 335 gr. bullets. Anyone have a load for these with 4227 ?

quote:

Posted 23 January 2011 19:51 Hide Post
Double Tap sells a load that is a .360 grain WFN that runs right around 1,150 and they have proven quite accurate in our testing. They were shot out of a 5-inch Blackhawk (cottonstalk's).

That is in the velocity range and is kind of hard to get.

quote:

Posted 23 January 2011 22:17 Hide Post
My phone seems to like to replace the word Ruger with the word river. Sorry for the confusion. I also have some 335 gr. bullets. Anyone have a load for these with 4227 ?

4227, no, I don't like the powder in the .44 or .45. It has pressure issues with a hot gun in both.
I use 296 with the 335 gr boolit. 21.5 gr and a standard Fed 150 primer.

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Originally posted by bfrshooter:

quote:

Posted 23 January 2011 19:51 Hide Post
Double Tap sells a load that is a .360 grain WFN that runs right around 1,150 and they have proven quite accurate in our testing. They were shot out of a 5-inch Blackhawk (cottonstalk's).

That is in the velocity range and is kind of hard to get.

It's a +P loading.

One of the loading manuals I have shows a 360 cast 45 Colt load using 22gr. Of 4227 for a velocity of around 1200 fps.

I'm hoping 4227 will burn more consistantly in the cold than H110 does.

I've had hangfires with 296 in my 45 Blackhawk with 300 grn bullets in cold weather. I use 4227, funny thing, in my 4 5/8 barrel 4227 gives less muzzle flash then unique when used with a heavy crimp.

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Posted 25 January 2011 10:42 Hide Post
One of the loading manuals I have shows a 360 cast 45 Colt load using 22gr. Of 4227 for a velocity of around 1200 fps.

I'm hoping 4227 will burn more consistantly in the cold than H110 does.

That will do it.
4227 has only proven bad in the heat of summer with many shots like IHMSA. I shot the smallest 200 meter groups with both 4227's if I kept the gun cool but heat gave me big trouble.
I think it would be a great cold weather powder.
I have never had a problem with 296 in the cold though and I use standard primers.
My biggest problems with 4227 was in the .44 and other calibers worked fine. The .357 Max was wonderful with it.

Thanks for the replies. For summer time I will use H110 or 296 . I always use a heavy crimp. Lee Factory Crimp die. But the Redding dies for my 45 / 454 Casull make a very good roll crimp. Its good to know 4227 will work in the cold. For me cold is cold. And it goes on for months.

I had problems with these 360 great. bullets at high velocity frommy 454 on a Mooses skull . But I,m hoping the lower velocity of the 45Colt will help them hold together.

I have a mold for 375 gr. wfn but the only gun these will fit in is a redhawk or my FA .454.
The load I use stabaliezes them and shoot very well but it's not a load I would use in a Blackhawk.
I have only used H110 or 296 and never had any problems but I don't shoot much below zero. 4227 will slow the bullet down even more and I would say you might indeed run into a problem stabalizing the heavey bullet. I also have a 340 gr. mould that I use for Blackhawks and M25's It seems about perfect.

I still have some 335 Cast Performance bullets. I will play around with the 360 gr Oregon Trails. I need to come up with a 250 gr load and a bear load with an over 300 gr bullet that shoot to a similar p o i. I also need to learn how to hit what I aim at. These single action guns other than the Bisley are kind of turf for me to hit with. The Super Redhawk seems to be a lot easier to hit with. My Bisley Hunter is pretty easy to shoot well.

Ak; the 340 gr bullet does sound about right. John Linebaugh told me cast bullets could break up if driver over 1200 f p s. And I proved him right. But I hope by keeping the velocity @ 1200 or less they ill hold together. Do you ever sell any bullets? ?

They shouldn't necessarily break up over 1,200 fps -- again it sounds like you got a batch of really brittle bullets. JL likes the lower velocity as it has proven as effective from a penetration standpoint as higher velocities with the same bullet and it keeps the shooter from getting beat up.

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
Ak; the 340 gr bullet does sound about right. John Linebaugh told me cast bullets could break up if driver over 1200 f p s. And I proved him right. But I hope by keeping the velocity @ 1200 or less they ill hold together. Do you ever sell any bullets? ?

I've ran cast bullets to 1400 FPS with excellent results if a cast bullet breaks up at this velocity then they are too brittle. Pure wheel wieghts water quenched from the mold has worked extremely well for me

Originally posted by jwp475

quote:

Pure wheel wieghts water quenched from the mold has worked extremely well for me

That is exactly what I do and I run almost everything at 1350 to 1400 ( the 375's at 1350 are a handfull) there should be no reason a bullet will break up at this velocity.
Typicaly if a bullet is too hard it will have a purpleish cast to the normal silver color. This comes from to much alloy like linotype.

Gumboot I don't sell my bullets but next time your down here I'll give you a handfull to try out.

Great.

How long does it take for a quenched bullet to change it's hardness. And does the toughness change also. .

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Posted 27 January 2011 19:44 Hide Post

quote:
Originally posted by gumboot458:
Ak; the 340 gr bullet does sound about right. John Linebaugh told me cast bullets could break up if driver over 1200 f p s. And I proved him right. But I hope by keeping the velocity @ 1200 or less they ill hold together. Do you ever sell any bullets? ?



I've ran cast bullets to 1400 FPS with excellent results if a cast bullet breaks up at this velocity then they are too brittle. Pure wheel wieghts water quenched from the mold has worked extremely well for me

I shoot water dropped PB WW boolits over 1632 fps all the time and they don't break up no matter what you hit, except steel.

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How long does it take for a quenched bullet to change it's hardness. And does the toughness change also. .

Not really sure but at least a week or more. They also increase in diameter.
Toughness is the best way to say it, they get tougher to take the rifling.

Do they stay the same hardness or does it change with time?

Lead alloys will slowly harden over time and then will start to soften. It can take years to soften back.
You need antimony, tin and a trace of arsenic for lead to harden. Water dropping or oven hardening will speed the process. Air cooled takes longer.
Eventually, lead will again become soft.
Nothing you do to pure lead will change it.
I do not have a time table, most changes over time mean little to our shooting except to let boolits harden long enough to get hard so they are not sized when seating. Water dropped boolits are still soft right after casting.

Well HIP HIP HOORAY !!!!!
I finally goy my reloading brnch up and running this afternoon and evening .
I loadd up a half doz 360 gr Oregon Trail , 335 gr Cast Preformance and 250 gr plated fn bullets with 22 gr IMR 4227 and CCI350 primers . I will try to find a spot where the chrony will pick up an accurate reading tomorrow and see how fast they are going from my 4 5/8" Blackhawk . .I did shoot a 360 into a block of white spruce firewood and it penetrated 9 " or a little more . I know Whit you arn,t too keen on log tests . but I needed a back stop to test the load ... At 10 below , water bucket tests are a little problematic . Not to mention buying 50$ worth of buckets and using 10$ worth of water ....

Excellent, gumboot! Please report your findings after you test.

If a 355gr .44 at 1200fps stabilizes with a 1-20" twist then why wouldn't a 360gr .45 at 1150fps stabilize with a 1-16" twist???

it should stabilize, my son's 454 stabilizes 400's at 1150 to 1200 with a 1/16" twist

quote:

Originally posted by tradmark:
it should stabilize, my son's 454 stabilizes 400's at 1150 to 1200 with a 1/16" twist

Out to how far if I may ask? I had outstanding accuracy out to about 25 yards running 400s a bit over 1,300 fps, but beyond that they weren't so great. The 360s on the other hand.....

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Originally posted by Whitworth:

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Originally posted by tradmark:
it should stabilize, my son's 454 stabilizes 400's at 1150 to 1200 with a 1/16" twist

Out to how far if I may ask? I had outstanding accuracy out to about 25 yards running 400s a bit over 1,300 fps, but beyond that they weren't so great. The 360s on the other hand.....

Also there is terminal stability, Ross Seyfried tried the 400 grain bullets in the 45's years ago and found the penetration on Asian Buffalo's to be lacking due to not enough stability

I know that the 355's out of a .44Mag at 1200fps shoot well out to 100yds and shoot surprisingly flat.

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Originally posted by newfrontier45:
If a 355gr .44 at 1200fps stabilizes with a 1-20" twist then why wouldn't a 360gr .45 at 1150fps stabilize with a 1-16" twist???

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New Frontier ; Welcome to the forums . It,s still kinda cold here so other than doin a little blastin w/ 250 gr plated loaded w the same 22 gr load of 4227 I havn,t done any chronographing . 40 below here this morning . The battery in th chrony dies real fast . .So I don,t know how fast the 360 gr load is going yet.

quote:

Originally posted by newfrontier45:
If a 355gr .44 at 1200fps stabilizes with a 1-20" twist then why wouldn't a 360gr .45 at 1150fps stabilize with a 1-16" twist???

I do not believe that anyone has stated that a 360 grain in 45 cal dosen't stabilize

quote:

"That is borderline because it is tough to reach a velocity for stability. I would say the 335 gr boolit is tops.
That boolit needs a .454 or .460."

This is what I was responding to.

You can stabilize the 360s in the .45 but my expireance is only in a redhawk or 5 shot.

I haven't used the 355 or 360 gr. bullets mentioned here but their is no way my .375 will fit in anything other than the redhawk or my FA .454 chamber.
A friend of mine has a .375 gr mould with a short crimp groove but that bullet takes up so much case capacity that you will find it hard to get the velocity with H110.
With the old .45 colt it all depeds on the gun you shooting it from and the S&W or Blackhawks are a can of worms with anything over 340 gr.

Well I learned 1 thing . I have to really crimp these 360 gr bullets . I shot a cylinder of them yesterday out of the Blackhawk . For the 1 st time in my life I had the last round in the cylinder jump the crimp .
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I hadn,t crimped them real hard because I wanted to be able to take the ammo apart if they were too hot ect . . I had lightly crimped them .
These hot , heavy , loads require alot to keep these bullets where they belong ..

originally posted by Gumboot

quote:

These hot , heavy , loads require alot to keep these bullets where they belong ..

Yes this is one of the problems with the heavy's
I have gone so far as to cut down .454 brass to fit the LC chamber.

You are using a lee crimp die arn't you?

Yes , I,m now using a Lee factory crimp die , this morning I gave them a pretty good squashing . When I had my 454 I really crimped the reloads hard as I figured with all that velocity the bullets would need it . I had these 360s going over 1400 fps out of that gun . that was part of my mistake . Thinking that with the lower velocity they wouldn,t need as tight a crimp .
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In point of fact , I thot they would kick harder than they do . Tho they do kick pretty hard . A 4 5/8" Blackhawk is pretty light compared to my 7 1/2" Bisley Hunter or the 7 1/2" F A model 83 .