How precisely does the Lee C429310 perform from say 50 to 150 yards . . . and even beyond that distance IF we are not talking on live game.
It was the most precise shooting bullet to leave my 9 1/2" SRH at 50 yards, but I never had place to test at greater distances.

There are two different variations of that mold. The older variation has a "Square" bottom lube groove and slightly smaller meplat. The new version has a round bottom lube groove and larger meplat.

I have used the old version has shot very well for me. Minute of standard silhouette chicken at 300 yards if I did my part.

The new variation I have not shot much. I cannot say for certain the accuracy potential. v

DANG, I gave away my old one and have not run lead into the new one yet.
I may regret doing it that way.

Well Whitworth your head is made up, so its a waste of my time to argue over it, I am willing to try those bullets, but Ive seen the 255 gr.keith simi wad cutter not only make a perfect 45 or larger hole and shave the hair for an inch around the bullet..Maybe there is a diffence that I don't see, but one thing Im sure of is one cannot tell the difference in killing power until one has shot 100 or more head of game rifle or pistol..Its all in ones imagination and opinnions vary and a jacketed soft nose or Hollow POint always makes a larger wound channel, just not as deep in penetration, but the right bullet will penetrate enough, not spend all that BS on the side of a mountain.

I like that mould very much. It is an excellent cartridge cast with linotype over 22G. of 2400 in my 44 mag. It will deliver.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Well Whitworth your head is made up, so its a waste of my time to argue over it, I am willing to try those bullets, but Ive seen the 255 gr.keith simi wad cutter not only make a perfect 45 or larger hole and shave the hair for an inch around the bullet..Maybe there is a diffence that I don't see, but one thing Im sure of is one cannot tell the difference in killing power until one has shot 100 or more head of game rifle or pistol..Its all in ones imagination and opinnions vary and a jacketed soft nose or Hollow POint always makes a larger wound channel, just not as deep in penetration, but the right bullet will penetrate enough, not spend all that BS on the side of a mountain.

No Atkinson, I hunt with revolvers exclusively and have killed a truckload of game with them. My "head is made up" from a lot of trial and error and much experimentation. You don't need to weigh in on virtually every topic, Ray.

Ok, Ill keep that in mind!

Back to the original subject; I totally agree with you Ray that the only improvement that could be made to the 250 Keith was additional hardness, thus I cast mine in Linotype + they DO perform. It is an excellent bullet design.

quote:

Originally posted by NormanConquest:
Back to the original subject; I totally agree with you Ray that the only improvement that could be made to the 250 Keith was additional hardness, thus I cast mine in Linotype + they DO perform. It is an excellent bullet design.

Yeah, and bias ply tires are just as good as radials.

Sorry, Bob, I don't understand your comment.

quote:

Originally posted by NormanConquest:
Sorry, Bob, I don't understand your comment.

Let’s try that again. While bias ply tires (substitute for Keith-style semi-wadcutters) work reasonably well, there are better and more current designs - radial tires - available that actually work much better.

I didn’t think that metaphor was that difficult to follow, but there are much better cast bullet designs available today.

i got it right off. having said that, sometimes the old ways/things are just more fun to go with. i like the keith style bullet just because its a keith bullet, in a 44 spl. in a 45 colt i like the bigger meplat ones. and i really wanna try one a those star wars looking drill tip bullets (lehigh) someday in the 45 colt. on my 61 willys cj5 i have the WW11 directional tires. the ones with the offset horizontal tread "bars".

Sorry, I , missed your metaphor Bob, after all I'm not in the tire business, I'm in the metal business. As to your preference to a cast design, if you find one you like, go for it. I know in the final Analisis performance is the primary result. Here we now go into the realm of Ford V.S. Chevy e.g. I know I'm right + you think you are. Basically we are back to opinions. I hope the ones you choose give you good service + thats what counts.

quote:

Originally posted by NormanConquest:
Sorry, I , missed your metaphor Bob, after all I'm not in the tire business, I'm in the metal business. As to your preference to a cast design, if you find one you like, go for it. I know in the final Analisis performance is the primary result. Here we now go into the realm of Ford V.S. Chevy e.g. I know I'm right + you think you are. Basically we are back to opinions. I hope the ones you choose give you good service + thats what counts.

I think Bob is correct. There are much better cast bullet designs available than the old semi-wadcutter variations. And frankly they're not new as they date back to the '80s. The meplat on a true "Keith" bullet is rather small and as such, the wound channel potential suffers. Don't know many handgun hunters who haven't embraced the LBT designs at this point in time.

This isn't the best picture, but you can see the difference between the WFN (left) and the "Keith" on the right.

Oh, I understand quite well but as a hardheaded kraut I still adhere to my beliefs. I have bought some WFN moulds from Veral Smith but in actual performance, I cannot say that they were superior to Keith. As always, just my opinion but at least I tried it. Again, only my opinion (even when it's right)

N C, you are an old hard headed Kraut. But a good one. The Keith was the best in its day. But give the true LBT bullets a chance one day. They will astound you. They don't have to be pushed to Carpal Tunnel levels to kill with authority. The 45 LC still gets it done with an accurate load and a 300 gr LBT WFN in front of that powder. Try it when you get a chance. The equivalent works in a .44 Mag as well. Take care of yourself, and God Bless. Packy.

Much of my experience has been with rifles in my endeavor to make the bullet makers give us a flat nose solid.

My experience with animals killed with pistols isn't enough to argue the point with you or JWP, as its apparent you both have the most experience with pistol hunting, and I am limited to the Keith simi wadcutter which has worked for me to perfection as have the flat nose solids of GS Customs and North Fork in rifles that determined some of my statements, such as I noticed with the GS Customs solid and the Keith 250 when cast very hard shave the hair around the entrance hole on a animal and that seems to let a lot of blood out the entrance hole and seems to not plug up with fat, Ive seen this in several cases, and noticed the blood trails are more on the entrance side in follow ups..I have seen the opposite with rounded flat nose solids where in they punch in like a pencil and tend to close up from one degree to another..

NO sir, I did not ignore your posts, I read them carefully considered what you posted with an open mind, and it made since to me but I basically ignored your sarcasim which added nothing to your interesting posts..and yes I do get involved and post a good deal, as hunting and shooting and building rifles has been my life and you sir have not right to scold me for joining in conversation that is of interest to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:


NO sir, I did not ignore your posts, I read them carefully considered what you posted with an open mind, and it made since to me but I basically ignored your sarcasim which added nothing to your interesting posts..and yes I do get involved and post a good deal, as hunting and shooting and building rifles has been my life and you sir have not right to scold me for joining in conversation that is of interest to me.

Who are you talking to????

When I first started out in handguns and reloading, Keith's books and info, starting with those items acted as my guidelines. So much so, I wrote him a couple of letters asking for some of the specifics to which he answered. I still have his replys. In the early 70's I decided to try and get down to see him and wrote to make those arrangements. I spent the better part of a day visiting and chatting with him at his home in Salmon Idaho. That meeting I would classify at the highlight of my years of shooting and hunting. I did see him once more at a gun show in Kalispell Montana where he was the guest of honour shortly after he had been awarded the trophy naming as the 1st recipient of the American Handgunner of The year award. As I was preparing to leave I took a photo of him standing by my truck, gun drawn. It's a photo I use as my avatar on sites. Back to the primary topic, the Lyman #429421, cast using wheel weights, and pushed by 22gr of 2400 is still my favorite.

Mine as well. The only difference between ours is that I use Linotype instead of wheel weights in that particular loading. Same powder + grains used though.

I used linotype but had difficulty getting it sometimes so what I did get my hands on, I stuck aside for 45ACP and 32 S&W target/paper punching ammo.

John, I agree that you don't see it as often as you used to but it is out there if you want to pay the price. I bought 200 lbs. for a buddy from an AR member for $200.00. I thought that was a fair price. I still have plenty of my own. Now if he will just come + pick it up + pay me for it (6 months later) I will be a happy man. You know the old saying, "No good deed goes unpunished."

question.....if you use linotype to get a harder bullet, and its scarce, why not just water drop the WW outta the mold?

Yes, that does work to harden. The 'main' reason I set aside my acquisitions of linotype for competition target use bullets is its characteristic of casting virtually perfect. There are a number of casting mixes that cast well but linotype is top of the heap. That being said, most most of my casting needs were well served with wheel weights.

back in the early 70s i had a fee-bee i worked with some give me a bar (big ingot) of linotype to cast into 38s. when i found out how hard it was to get i put it aside. still have it. wish i had a lot more of it!

In this era of modern technology, the printing process has also gone modern. Explains why the 'tools' of yesterday aren't as available as they once were. And, helps explains why todays linotype sources are in decline. I guess the biggest variable for casting metal is the casting temperature, and that of the mold/mould. Linotype tends to cast clean & sharp in a broader temp range compared other 'mixes'. Design characteristic.

johnc, yes the water quench will harden it but it will not last. Over a period of a few months, the original Brinell hardness will return to the w.w.'s.

Maxenergy

I was talking to Witworth..

Randy,
I have my 45 colt bullets cast by a top notch gunsmith, and he basically said exactly what you posted above, his bullets are hard as woodpecker lips..

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Maxenergy

I was talking to Witworth..

Lighten up Ray, no one is scolding you.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
NOt much you can do to improve the 250 gr. Keith bullet except perhaps mold them a bit harder, that shoulder cuts a big hole and lets a lot of blood out..Penetration is close to extreme, using a heavier bullets isn't the answer as it won't increase penetration to any degree, as the bullet is slowed down so its a push..Some folks think all you have to do is make a bullet heavier and you get more penetration, not so, its a balancing act, a happy medium before you get to diminishing returns..The 250 Keith is that perfect combination in a 44 or 45 caliber IMO..

Ray, I have to disagree. Weight certainly helps with penetration all else being equal, and frankly there are better designs than the "Keith" that have a significantly larger meplat that subsequently produce a substantially larger wound channel. Veral Smith proved long ago that the shoulder does not contribute to the wound channel. The Keith and other semi-wadcutters do however punch clean holes in paper.

I have to agree. I like the Keith style bullets for paper punching, nothing better IMO. Even took some game with them but have moved on to WFN type bullets for that these days. Sure, the Keith works on game but I'm of the opinion that the heavier flat nosed bullets with a larger meplat work better. Long ago I switched to the SAECO 265 GC. I'm sure there are better out there.

I think it was Ross Seyfreid who tested Keith type and WFN bullets.
He put sand in a gelatin mix and fired bullets of each type into blocks of it.
The sand never rubbed the edges of the Keith type, the nose diverted the gel over the full dia of the bullet. The WFN made a larger cut channel due to the larger contact surface.

I miss reading Ross's columns. I quit "Handloader" when they got rid of him. I felt he was their best writer.

I've killed an awful lot of game with the 250 gr Keith bullet & it's always worked great! Is the LBT style better, yes, a little bit but I've never lost an animal, hardly ever tracked one more than a few yards, even big elk. I've seen very little actual killing difference in the field but the edge has to go to the better design, I just haven't had it play out yet.
Shooting straight linotype at high speed will eventually get you in trouble, you're going to hit a big bone & that bullet is going to shatter on you. If you dial it down just a bit with some lead you will have a better bullet.
I have over 1,200 lbs of linotype but I never shoot it pure, there's no need.
Also 22 grs of 2400 is a very warm load using the newer Alliant powder compared to the older Hercules. If you are shooting a SRH you are probably just fine but if it's a Super Blackhawk you'll be doing your gun a favor to back off to 21 grs or even another .5 grs. My BFR prefers 19.5 grs with that bullet, just saying.

Dick

quote:

Originally posted by sixshot_01:
I've killed an awful lot of game with the 250 gr Keith bullet & it's always worked great! Is the LBT style better, yes, a little bit but I've never lost an animal, hardly ever tracked one more than a few yards, even big elk. I've seen very little actual killing difference in the field but the edge has to go to the better design, I just haven't had it play out yet.
Shooting straight linotype at high speed will eventually get you into trouble Shooting straight linotype at high speed will eventually get you in trouble, you're going to hit a big bone & that bullet is going to shatter on you. If you dial it down just a bit with some lead you will have a better bullet.
I have over 1,200 lbs of linotype but I never shoot it pure, there's no need.
Also 22 grs of 2400 is a very warm load using the newer Alliant powder compared to the older Hercules. If you are shooting a SRH you are probably just fine but if it's a Super Blackhawk you'll be doing your gun a favor to back off to 21 grs or even another .5 grs. My BFR prefers 19.5 grs with that bullet, just saying.

Dick

Quite right you are Quite right you are with the use of lino. My primary or basic stand-by for cast for hot loads is usually wheel weights. What lino I had was usually set aside for my 45 ACP and 32 'paper punching' loads.

Always glad to seee your posts, Dick.

Hello Bill, I was wrong when I said my BFR preferred 19.5 grs of 2400, I should have said 20.5 grs, sorry! Meant to use that load on an elk last month but the flu kicked my butt hard! Then 2 Lions moved in & them & the elk had quite a little rodeo until some houndsmen got the Lions.

Still the elk stayed north of where I could hunt them on some private property, game over!

Dick

Sorry the flu fouled up your hunting plans, Dick. Glad your state still allows houndsmen to work on the lions. Many no longer do, including my old home state of Oregon -- except in very special cases.

Maybe the tree S's would work. Depends on the circumstances. Be Well, Packy.