Severe? What does that mean? He should shoot my .45 Vaquero with a hefty load of 296 and a 347gr. boolit. Kicks harder then any .454, .475 or .500 I ever shot! After six in mine, my middle finger hurts more then after 100 .454 loads. I have a large knuckle from a lifetime of shooting heavy bows and the trigger guards beat the be-Jesus out of it. Seems as if we have a few girly-men around.

Hog Killer, I haven't slugged the bore, but it's on my "to-do" list. I hope to get to that early next week.

Liljohn, I know what you mean. Luckily, this board has been relatively trouble free in that regard. There's the occasional spat but nothing like the crap I had over on Sixgunner which has been just ridiculous. Here's a couple of the stupid-a$$ replies.

"MAYBE I'M MISSING SOMETHING BUT WHY DO YOU WANT THEM TO GO ANY FASTER?"

and who could forget...

"I remember once back 50 or so years ago I was complaining to a friend because I couldn't get some kind of desired performance out of my old rusty, er, trusty .30-30, and the friend told me, "The only way you're going to get a .30-30 to do that is to buy a .270 and a set of metal stamps and stamp .30-30 on the .270 barrel and shoot it !". "

Who comes up with this crap?

Then there was a guy who rambled on about how he tested the S&W "before I even knew what the 500 S&W was" or something to the effect amongst a bunch of other berating remarks, and that talk usually means they're totally full of crap. However, I'll give the guy the benefit of the doubt because I know there's a couple of guys over there who are legit.

Anyway, I've said it before and I'll say it again. I am very pleased with the feedback I've gotten over here and so glad that I didn't have to put up with a bunch of crap to get it. Thanks to JRO45 and everyone else. There will be more to follow as soon as I go rob a bank to buy ammo for this thing... ssshhhh... nobody tell them it isn't loaded because I couldn't afford bullets.

BFRSHOOTER,
I know this is off the subject a bit, but when it comes to severe handgun recoil, I think I have found true pain.
How about a 44 mag derringer using 300 grain bullets loaded hot enough to stick? That hurts a lot more than anything else I have been able to come up with. Screwed up a nerve in my palm that took months to get over. Believe it or not, it hurt so much the first shot, I had to shoot a second shot just to be sure! I was quite right the first time!

By the way, these guns will double on you if you put two shells in at once because of firing pin rebound. Only load one at a time. Better yet, just forget the whole idea.

Kingfisher,
Try a different powder if you want higher velocity but you won't get the tight groups. No9 gave me the velocity but my groups were 5 to 6 inches. They listed the No9 loadings in the first load papers they came out with. I still have them and beleave me they were fast loads. Not as fast as LiL'Gun says but in three months time for the powder to lose its power doesn't show me much other than tight groups.

Well, I know that it's still a powerful gun but that doesn't mean that I don't want the most for my money. The gun should do 1800 fps. with 350 gr. bullets and it's not even getting close to that.

I made a quick trip to the range yesterday, and the results were disappointing to say the least. With a max load of LilGun I didn't even make it to 1600. Big

I think one of my problems right now is going to be bullet tension. The brass has been resized a half dozen times and I don't think the bullets are seating tight enough, but I'm not sure if that's going to make up the difference or not. Atleast with the original barrel I was in the 1700's. I would have accepted that. I wont stand for high 1500's. No way. So at the moment, 500 S&W testing is suspended until I get some new brass and a fresh supply of bullets and then we'll go from there.

That is odd. I put a 420 grain Hunters Supply cast over 34 grains of H110 and average 1560 or better no problem.
Could it be the Chrono? Not so much something wrong with it but direct sunlight or something? How far are you from it when shooting?
I understand your frustration. When you think you are doing everything right and things still don't work out it sucks.
Bite the bullet and try some of the following factory stuff as a benchmark:
Ultramax 440 CP - advertised 1400, I get 1400.
Ultramax 375 CP - advertised 1550 IIRC, I get 1530.
Ultramax 325 JHP - advertised 1375, I get 1365.
Hornady Custom 350 XTP - advertised 1750, I get 1680.
Chronograph is a Beta Crony, I usually shoot at about 12'.
The Ultramax loads are lighter stuff, but also lighter price as well. They also are very close to advertised velocities.

Also, I don't know if you post on Sixgunner.com but some one over there may have some good input. John Taffin and Lee Jurras, among others, both regularly post and answer many questions. If any one would have an answer...You might join up there and ask. That's a great site as well.
Good luck,
Jason

Thanks Jason, I'll look into that other site. The chronograph should have been far enough from the bench as not to be succeptable to muzzle blast. Plus it was reading my friends 7mm/307 Contender with a muzzle brake just fine. Then later I fired some rounds out of my 338/378 across it and those were just where they should have been, so I honestly think the chronograph (an Oehler 35P) is telling the truth. Any other suggestions anyone?

Thanks JRO, I'll take that under advisement. I went ahead and put a post over on Sixgunner but that was obviously a waste of time. So far everyone seems more concerned with why I want more velocity than they are with helping me find out why I'm not getting enough. I don't want to hear crap like "1650 will kill'em just as dead" or "speed isn't everything". Freakin'A, I just want the gun to perform as advertised and it isn't! Anyway, I'm sorry for the brief rant, and thank you very much to everyone here on AR who have responded and are trying so graciously to help me figure out what the problem is.

Kingfisher, I think you should try AA9 gun powder with the
275 gr bullet starting load 36grs = 1821fps max load is 39.6
=1923fps. These were put out by COR BON for the 500. It only lists the 275,400,&440. This is the first load info. for the S&W 500 but I'd think these are a lot closer then the other powders.

Kingfisher,
You didn't say what bullet you were using? I assume you are using the Hornady 350 HP as you did before.
As I have said before, I use 45 and 46 grains of 296 in my 4" barrel and averaged 1560 fps. Try stepping up the load of H110 to 46 grains and I'll bet you see more like 1750 fps in our barrel. You can't blow the gun up with any amount of 296 you can get in the case.
Keep posting you findings for us. Shad.

Kingfisher,
Sorry, I probably should have warned you about that. That is a great site, but some of them, for whatever reason, seem to dislike anything that isn't a single action .45 Colt. Stay with it over there, JT (John Taffin) has replied already. Go along with the "what for" crap and you will get some good info eventually.

If you had asked the same question about a Vaquero .45 or Freedom Arms revolver, you'd have to hire a small staff, and you'd all be there till December sorting out the replies.

But with the .500, you'll have to "explain why" first.

But stay with it. That site, like this one, is a wealth of information, and someone will give you an answer.

I guess I completely left out the bullet type. I'm not going to bother reading back through to find out. They're the Sierra 350 gr. hollow points. Not the Hornady's.

Thanks for the mountaingun, much appreciated. The exact length on the barrel is 8 3/8". I may just have to live with what I've got but I'm going to try some other things in the meantime. I've decided to stay away from the Hornady ammo because if I remember correctly they're still using large pistol primers in their stuff and everything I already have is large rifle. I guess I just wish I knew where the pressure was going! As it stands right now, my velocities using the maximum recommended loads for the 3 fastest powders (per Hodgdon's data) really aren't even equal to the velocities they're getting with their starting loads. Even taking into account the fact that their loads were developed in a fixed breech setup with a 10" barrel, I should still be doing better than the mid 1500's. I guess I'll trudge on! I'm currently trying to get ahold of tech support at S&W but apparently they're very busy.

The best to you and your 500. Let me know how you make out with the AA9 if you want to try it. I'm gonna change one box of my 270gr bullets to that AA9. Before this LIL'GUN got into the load dadda I was shooting the 270 gr bullets at 200 yds and hitting my target with AA9 with a little hold over I'ld say about 2 to 3 foot.

I will apologize about suggesting Sixgunner. I have found Sixgunner to be a wealth of information, and while I have seen them razz newcomers a little at times, I've never seen that type of abuse. I guess the "useless information" did it.

It may have been timing. A long time member made some stupid remarks about law enforcement (or what was taken as such) and they jumped him even worse. The whole site is a hornets nest right now. At any rate, I'll monitor that thread. You still may get an answer from someone who doesn't care why you want more velocity. Agian, I apologize.

In the mean time:
1. Try some of that Ultramax ammo. It's cheaper than Corbon or Hornady - 35.00 - 40.00 for 20 rounds. They use Starline LR primer brass, and their velocities are as advertised. This will accomplish a few things: Benchmark your gun against a known ammo as well as against my 500 with same ammo.

2. Try other bullets in your reloads. I would suggest a little heavier. Maybe your 500 does not like THAT bullet.

3. If possible, have someone else try (clock) your loads in their 500, if you know anyone else who has one. By the same token, clock the loads through a different chronograph, if possible. I don't doubt your chrono, but I like to eliminate all variables when possible.

You may have already considered these steps, I think they would go along way in isolating the problem.

Good luck and keep me posted.
Jason

Kingfisher,

I've had the same problem on this site. Some a-hole that calls himself fiftydriver shot a borrowed 500, tested three charge weights using one bullet/powder combination from a bench he admits was less-than-ideal, shooting at crappy targets (paper plates if I am not mistaken), and all the sudden he's the forum expert on the cartridge.

The guy was not very enthusiastic about the accuracy or performance (but used an inadequate rest and only one bullet/powder combo), and said the recoil was severe. He then went on to say that the 300 fps advantage gained from the 500 would perform no better on game than his 480.

I offered data that differed considerably from his, as I have tested out a large number of powder/bullet combos from a good rest and had fantastic results. I stated that for me, the gun was ergonomic and posed no problems regarding felt recoil. In fact, my .454 with heavy loads was much worse. I also said that his results, which yielded a 300 fps greater velocity than his .480, would definitely make a difference, either in the terminal performance or the effective range of the cartridge.

He responded by stating that I was lying, did not have his hunting expertise, was the numbers type of guy that he despised because it's all just theory, and that I was just offended by anyone criticizing my little baby 500 (keep in mind I've never met the guy). I did not respond to this attack because there is no point. Later, he went on to say that my silence on the subject validates his conclusions.

This is the first time I have visited this site since then because people like him are a cancer. They've made up their minds about what they believe (the guy left posts 6 months earlier saying the 500, when it comes out, will be a waste of space because he couldn't use it to hunt elk, then take a small bird with it if the opportunity presented itself). But they are going dominate the forum because it becomes their only source of friends and confidence.

As you say, life is too short. There are a load of other forums out there that appreciate someone's hard work and willingness to share their knowledge. I don't have time for assholes that cannot follow simple logical arguements and back up their claims with emperical information.

One more thing--traffic in this forum appears to be down from what is used to be. I wonder if pricks like this guy have anything to do with it?

I'll check back in another six months...

10-4. As soon as I can track them down. I'll give it hell!

I'll try to get a lb. of 4100 and AA9 asap and we'll see what happens. Unfortunately I don't know how long it's going to take me to get it done. I'm headed to Cozumel next weekend and then to CO. for an Elk hunt (hopefully) the week after that, so it may be a couple of weeks unfortunately before I get it done. I'm going to try sooner though as I'd like to take the 500 on my elk hunt.

Kingfisher,
Now that you have supplied some details, I plugged a couple of your data points into Quickload. For lack of better numbers I used a 10" barrel (for revolvers, use barrel length plus most of the cylinder length) and accepted Quickload's default parameters, generally minimum SAAMI spec chamber and bore. In other words, Quickload makes conservative assumptions that will result in higher pressures and velocities than most mass produced guns.

350 gr. 0.331" seating depth, 10" barrel

41.5 H4227 Quickload 1670 fps vs. 1582 your gun

42 H110 Quickload 1661 fps vs. 1535 your gun

By the way, the latter load is only 33000 psi.

Given Quickload's conservative bias, I'd say your velocities are reasonable. Since you are nowhere near max pressures, if you want more velocity, just dump in more powder.

JT, I've given up on the Sixgunner folks. Maybe you can pass on my best wishes to all of them and I mean that sincerely. I'm sure they're a nice bunch of guys but none that I care to converse with any further on the matter. Once again, a tremendous thank you to everyone here that believes there's some legitimacy to my claims or at the very least has been nice enough to try to give me some suggestions. I thought I might be able to drag some useful information out of them but I got virtually none.

I have read this on each of the forums you have posted this question on . You have been asked to slug the bore and your reply was it was on your to-do list , Did you ever get to it ?? post dimensions for the bore along with cylinder throat , barrel gap and bullet size . How does the finish of the bore appear ? have you looked at with a bore scope ? Is there copper fouling ? How does the forcing cone look ? What are the dimensions of a unfired and fired case , What are the dimensions of the chamber ?

Kingfisher,

Have you slugged the bore to see what size the new barrel is?

Hog Killer

I found this I don't know if this will help with your velocity problems.

Quote:

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Certain information contained in the August, 2004, "G&A Reloads" column concerning specifications for the .500 Smith & Wesson Magnum cartridge was incomplete. The column stated that the SAAMI specification for the .500 S&W case originally called for Large Pistol primers, and that the specification was subsequently changed to Large Rifle primers. In fact, SAAMI standards, for any and all cartridges, do not include specifications for the type of primers to be used. Therefore, .500 S&W cases using Large Pistol primers, and .500 S&W cases using Large Rifle primers are both within SAAMI industry standards for that cartridge.

Further, the caption for the photo at right on page 35 unintentionally implied that only early lots of Hornady .500 S&W brass were designed for Large Pistol primers, and that later lots of Hornady brass use Large Rifle primers. In fact, all Hornady .500 S&W ammunition continues to use Hornady-manufacture cases designed for Large Pistol primers only.

All .500 S&W cases marked with an "R" on the headstamp are designed for Large Rifle primers, regardless of manufacturer. Cases designed for Large Pistol primers do not have the "R." Both types of cases are within SAAMI industry standards for the .500 S&W cartridge. Handloaders should take extreme care to use Large Rifle primers only in .500 S&W cases that are marked with an "R." All other .500 S&W cases should be handloaded only with Large Pistol primers. --Editor

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I've posted several of those things, on both boards. I haven't slugged the bore yet. Haven't had much of a chance to do anything with the gun in a week or two. I can measure the fired cases (the next time I fire them), but I don't think it's going to buy us anything as they all unchamber easily. Bore finish looks good. Fouling hasn't been any more than I would expect. Forcing cone also appears to be good. The only thing I don't really care for is the finish of the breach face, which is rough on the new barrel. The original wasn't that way.

The 3 loads I mentioned:

Ultramax 440 Cast Performance - advertised 1400, I get 1400.
Ultramax 375 Cast Performance - advertised 1550 IIRC, I get 1530.
Ultramax 325 JHP - advertised 1375, I get 1365.

Try these, see what you come up with, let me know.
Jason

JT, don't sweat the Sixgunner mess. I'm over it. Life's too short. I just get irritated when folks contribute useless mindless trash to a thread, and they like it even less when you call them on it. You read it, so you know what I'm talking about, and that only compounded everyone trying to tell me "that's just the way it is". What I was looking for is "Why is it the way it is." But you knew that!

As for the chronograph, I have a Chrony in addition to the Oehler and I'll try that one too, I haven't tried it since I got the gun back from S&W. A big thank you on the Ultramax suggestion, I'm going to try that at the earliest possible opportunity, hopefully before the end of next week. I'll let you know what the results are. Which loads EXACTLY are you using? Just the 275 gr. Barnes? I'll try more than one if I have to.

I hope the guy who wrote this doesn't mind me using this.

Quote:

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I use the Sierra brand bullets. They make a 350gr hollow point, and a 400gn flat point bullet (retail $18.50 per box of 50). These bullets are made for the 500 S&W magnum, with the cannelure for excellent crimping of the bullet to the case.(of course you could cast your own for MUCH less but I am to lazy for that!) I use the info on line from Hodgdon, using the H110 pistol powder. I also bought starline cases with the *R* stamp which mean rifle primer. Trim your cases at 1.615 long. I load the 350gn Sierra bullet with a Winchester Rifle primer using 39.0gns of H110 and the muzzle flash is fantastic. Velocity is 1,712 fps and the muzzle engery is 2,278 LBS. This is the starting load. The cases do not strech using this load. The pressures seem low as the cases "fall out" of the cylinder when removing the fired cases. You can crank the charge of powder up to 43.0gns @1,877 fps and 2,739 lbs if you are hunting, or as you see fit. It could be a Smith and Wesson thing, but I am very impressed with this gun!! ***Muzzle Energy source: Speer Reloading manual number 11 *** "Quote" Energy:The amount of work capable of being done by a projectile at a given range, expressed in foot-pounds. Found by multiplying the square of the velocity in fps by the weight of the bullet in grains and dividing by 450,240

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